Loyalty and airlines - are we expecting ridiculous things??

[Deleted member]

I have always maintained that “Loyalty” programs are actually “Frequency” programs. Once your Frequency falls away, so does your value to the airline.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

A phrase often used is that "loyalty is a two way street" - invariably being used in the sense that if customers show "loyalty", so must the airlines. But it begs the question, what is "loyalty" from the customer side? (as against the angst against the airlines)

A truly "loyal" customer would always buy a Qantas ticket where available. If Qantas didn't fly a route, but had a codeshare, the pax would buy the QF ticketed codeshare. Despite the price.

A person truly "loyal" to Qantas would never bag them.

Who can claim this?

Can you be "loyal" to two different airlines whose routes overlap? If you have ever bought a Virgin flight, can you still claim to be loyal to Qantas even if you are P1 with them? I think that many people only raise the loyalty concept when they need something. Which is truly not a loyal thing.

It is true that "loyalty" programs use this term at times, but at the end of the day, at least with Qantas, it is a FREQUENT FLYER program, and branded as such. There are loyalty bonuses and so forth, but can someone please show me where in the Qantas site they describe people as loyal and deserving better benefits if they do not actually meet the minimum frequency of flying as per their program??

You can be loyal to a friend, but still have the occasional disagreement or fight. being loyal doesn't mean being a 'yes man'.

Loyalty doesn't mean exclusivity.

I'm not sure the majority of folk who feel disappointed when Qantas lets them down are speaking in terms of a frequent flyer program and stated benefits. They are let down because they feel their needs aren't recognised or understood, despite them understanding the 'needs' of the airline when it delays them, cancels their flights, overbooks them, strands them in Dubai.

Those expectations might be totally unrealistic. But as I said, most people don't find out until it's too late.

 

[Matt_01]

A phrase often used is that "loyalty is a two way street" - invariably being used in the sense that if customers show "loyalty", so must the airlines. But it begs the question, what is "loyalty" from the customer side? (as against the angst against the airlines)

A truly "loyal" customer would always buy a Qantas ticket where available. If Qantas didn't fly a route, but had a codeshare, the pax would buy the QF ticketed codeshare. Despite the price.

A person truly "loyal" to Qantas would never bag them.

Who can claim this?

Can you be "loyal" to two different airlines whose routes overlap? If you have ever bought a Virgin flight, can you still claim to be loyal to Qantas even if you are P1 with them? I think that many people only raise the loyalty concept when they need something. Which is truly not a loyal thing.

It is true that "loyalty" programs use this term at times, but at the end of the day, at least with Qantas, it is a FREQUENT FLYER program, and branded as such. There are loyalty bonuses and so forth, but can someone please show me where in the Qantas site they describe people as loyal and deserving better benefits if they do not actually meet the minimum frequency of flying as per their program??

I may support/ answer your post honestly, we are going to the Harbin Ice Festival in Jan/Feb 19. As per my usual routine I book MrsM and MissM on points, no issues both of them in J ADL-SYD-PVG-HRB, ticketed and sorted.

When I made made my revenue booking MEL-SYD-PVG-HRB (work means we have meet in SYD prior to going to PVG-HRB) I did not care about the price I just wanted to be on the same aircraft and booked QF129 and QF4041, an MU code share. 12 weeks later no ticket and after many calls to QF and a couple to SST I was advised that this option was not available (although it is still being marketed and sold as I write this post). In the end, I was informed I can only get a paid J fare to HRB if the final sector is PVG-HRB was in Y and on the MU Flight Number, although paying QF J price, this is apparently to do with the QF/MU contract.

As a positive QF did back date the fare price and in the end we are all on the same flights just but 1 of us is not in the same cabin on the final sector.

Is this disappointing, yes, but it is a 3 hour Y flight which MrsM and I will draw straws on (I already know who will win) is it worth getting worked up over, I think not. I will argue the toss with QF for points and SC sometime next year.

I have gone seriously OT and into a rant. Apologies

 

[juddles]

You can be loyal to a friend, but still have the occasional disagreement or fight. being loyal doesn't mean being a 'yes man'.

Loyalty doesn't mean exclusivity.

I'm not sure the majority of folk who feel disappointed when Qantas lets them down are speaking in terms of a frequent flyer program and stated benefits. They are let down because they feel their needs aren't recognised or understood, despite them understanding the 'needs' of the airline when it delays them, cancels their flights, overbooks them, strands them in Dubai.

Those expectations might be totally unrealistic. But as I said, most people don't find out until it's too late.

Sorry MEl, but isn't that a contradiction: "Loyalty doesnt mean exclusivity" ??? This is exactly the sort of attitude that doesnt make sense.

"They are let down because their needs aren't recognized" - this is exactly what I am getting at - their needs are nowhere in the commercial agreement.

 

[JohnK]

In my point of view most "loyalty" programs are not about loyalty but eally frequent spender programs. It is mainly a one-way street and not in favour of the status member.

One thing I would like to see, and many may disagree with my point of view, is a distinction between miles/points earned from paid airfares and the miles/points given away with credit card signon bonuses and credit card spend. I would like to see a heavier weighting placed on miles/points earned from flying. And with that sort of change I would like to see greater award availability with the higher status you achieve so that someone that just churns 6-7 credit cards a year cannot trump the last remaining seats in any cabin before a statused member.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Sorry MEl, but isn't that a contradiction: "Loyalty doesnt mean exclusivity" ??? This is exactly the sort of attitude that doesnt make sense.

"They are let down because their needs aren't recognized" - this is exactly what I am getting at - their needs are nowhere in the commercial agreement.

If a passenger lives in Perth and needs to get to Hong Kong, flying Qantas via SYD at 16 hours vs a non-stop on Cathay at 8 hours is probably something else rather than loyalty.

Loyalty is looking at the overall situation, not an isolated incident which you might consider cancels that loyalty completely.

 

[moa999]

It is mainly a one-way street and not in favour of the status member.

is a distinction between miles/points earned from paid airfares and the miles/points given away with credit card ...see greater award availability with the higher status you achieve.

Well the FF programs do make profit.. so there is that element.

And dont most airlines already do this the SCs/TPs etc, and better availability or release ability for status members

 

[JohnK]

And dont most airlines already do this the SCs/TPs etc, and better availability or release ability for status members

Qantas used to have additional economy availability for Gold and above but not sure if that has continued.

As far as I am aware anyone armed with credit card signon bonuses or ATO points can book out business class and above at the same time as the rest.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Qantas used to have additional economy availability for Gold and above but not sure if that has continued.

I can confirm they have additional J class for silver and above. So I'm guessing that might carry over to coach as well.

 

[TopazKaz]

I had a negative experience with Qantas recently, which I will post about shortly in a different discussion... I won't get into it in this post as I have no intention of hijacking this thread. I do think that my sense of brand loyalty did play a role in the whole thing though, so I'd like to give my take on that.

Had anyone asked me a few months ago, about the brand names that I am most loyal to (across all types of products and services), Qantas would have been very high on the list. And my friends all knew this, I wasn't just a customer, I was bit of a "fan" really. My family were world travellers when I was a child, and some of my earliest memories involve getting onto a Qantas plane, and getting handed colouring in books and a little box of crayons by staff who were just terrific with children. Those memories are, and always will be, wonderful.

When I recently made a complaint, and was not happy at all with the way it was handled... I did mention my loyalty to the company, and long history with them in the process. It was never my intention to draw out a different outcome that I think I deserve over anyone else, or beyond normal expectations. Absolutely not (although I can see how it could be taken that way). I firmly believe that issues raised by a long time customer, and by a customer who has only flown with them once, should be on entirely equal footing. I just couldn't help but mention it because of the fact that my image of Qantas as a company, that I held in the highest regard, was shattering before my eyes, and I felt a little in shock over that. But now I realise that that part of it at least, is on me. That was my grandiose opinion of a company, not what they, or any corporate giant, really is.

If one good thing has come out of this, it's the fact that I am done with "loyalty" to any particular airline. And I am not saying that with a disgruntled attitude, I am actually happy about it. I've realised that undying loyalty to one airline was not serving any common sense purpose, it just meant that I was wearing rose coloured glasses and was refusing to take them off... something that did not work out well for me in the end. I am open to whatever is out there in travel brands now, and that is going to be more of an adventure then being stuck in my ways.

 

[juddles]

TopazKaz, I completely understand all your post and have run a similar path.

As far as other posters, all I see is the pax-side of wants from a "loyalty" situation.

 

[dajop]

Really there are very few issues that most passengers who consider themselves "loyal" (i.e. fit the category of " I've been platinum for the last 17 years ", actually expect anything more than either 1) published benefits or 2) what a normal passenger should expect.

The main exception I've seen over the years on AFF is this expectation of the self-confessed loyal, to be able to get on an earlier flight when they turn up at the airport, despite being on the cehapest fare that doesn't allow changes. Other than that there seems to expectations of priority treatment during IRROPS, faster calls, and requesting award seats.

Beyond that, you see a lot of complaints that relate to things any customer might expect (such as better handling of the "complementary" downgrades people occasionally receive, one hour waits for calls to be answered, etc), or "priority boarding" p) .

And to be frank, Qantas, like most large businesses are not all that interested loyalty per se, and definitely not past loyalty, but more in future business - which is what the "loyalty" program is designed to achieve ... lock people in. What sometimes they forget is that a few issues here and there can drive people elsewhere, but if there's enough additional demand to fill the gap, do they and should they even care?

 

[JohnK]

As far as other posters, all I see is the pax-side of wants from a "loyalty" situation.

What other "loyalty" do you expect from the customer other than flying the airline?

Donate back to airline 10% of miles earned every year? Promise to stop complaining? Give up bulkhead seat allocated for months to someone that has never flown the airline before?

 

[Basalt]

TopazKaz, I completely understand all your post and have run a similar path.

As far as other posters, all I see is the pax-side of wants from a "loyalty" situation.

I agree and I'm only a recent (last 4 years) member of the FF bandwagon and have also run that path. I'm "loyal" only because I need to stick with one airline for any sort of status as we don't fly enough for multiple airlines status. Pretty soon after I joined AFF, in conjunction with increased flying, it pretty quickly became obvious FF programs are there to make money for the airline first and foremost and that rewards are a marketing carrot to make more money;
Airlines are there to make money and the seat is the product,
Frequent Flyer programs are there to make money and the passenger is the product.

 

[bismarck]

I think what I expect from "loyalty" is flexibility and understand within the published rules. Things pop up all the time, and I would expect a little more understanding or effort for a Platinum member vs. a Bronze.

As an example, last night my 6:30am flight today was cancelled due to weather. No biggie, these things happen.

Ring the call centre and am told I've been rebooked on the 7am. "Ah" I say, "That will make it hard for me to make a 9am meeting in the city...any way you can check for anything earlier".

Almost immediately as I finished speaking, I'm told there's nothing else available. Suspicious that they've even checked, I push them harder that I really need an earlier flight and am eventually reluctantly told they have "booked me the last available seat on the 6am".

Rock up this morning....the 6am flight is only 2/3 full.

So, what would I expect from "loyalty"?
a) Don't spin me the BS about the last seat
b) Be more understanding
c) Don't be a box ticking drone....listen and try to solve a high(er) value customers problem

 

[Borisdog]

I think what I expect from "loyalty" is flexibility and understand within the published rules. Things pop up all the time, and I would expect a little more understanding or effort for a Platinum member vs. a Bronze.

As an example, last night my 6:30am flight today was cancelled due to weather. No biggie, these things happen.

Ring the call centre and am told I've been rebooked on the 7am. "Ah" I say, "That will make it hard for me to make a 9am meeting in the city...any way you can check for anything earlier".

Almost immediately as I finished speaking, I'm told there's nothing else available. Suspicious that they've even checked, I push them harder that I really need an earlier flight and am eventually reluctantly told they have "booked me the last available seat on the 6am".

Rock up this morning....the 6am flight is only 2/3 full.

So, what would I expect from "loyalty"?
a) Don't spin me the BS about the last seat
b) Be more understanding
c) Don't be a box ticking drone....listen and try to solve a high(er) value customers problem

Bismarck - That's a situation where Expert Flyer is your friend. Even the free version. It's very easy then to see when you're being snowed.

 

[bismarck]

Bismarck - That's a situation where Expert Flyer is your friend. Even the free version. It's very easy then to see when you're being snowed.

Yes, I have it. But the point is that I shouldn't have to.

 

[eastwest101]

I think what I expect from "loyalty" is flexibility and understand within the published rules. Things pop up all the time, and I would expect a little more understanding or effort for a Platinum member vs. a Bronze.

As an example, last night my 6:30am flight today was cancelled due to weather. No biggie, these things happen.

Ring the call centre and am told I've been rebooked on the 7am. "Ah" I say, "That will make it hard for me to make a 9am meeting in the city...any way you can check for anything earlier".

Almost immediately as I finished speaking, I'm told there's nothing else available. Suspicious that they've even checked, I push them harder that I really need an earlier flight and am eventually reluctantly told they have "booked me the last available seat on the 6am".

I think that raises an interesting thing about this discussion in that bismarck, as a frequent traveller, comes into contact with the airline more frequently than a once a year flyer, so bismarck has the background knowledge and experience to know b.s. when it is fed to them, its just co-incidental that due to their more frequent travelling that they have a high status with the airline in question. The same fob off given to a once-a-year passenger probably wouldn't normally be challenged (unless the passenger has knowledge passed on from earlier more frequent ravelling).

But it is amusing to think that if the tier/status system worked as intended, then maybe bismarck is entitled to a better quality "lie" or "fob off" than say a bronze member.

I think its just a case of frequent travellers come into contact with glitches and failures of the systems in various airlines more than the once a year flyer, and probably see them enough to warrant a complaint about why the airline isn't extending themselves (or the airline actively discourages staff from fixing problems) to fix the problem.

Like any business - a certain percentage of the customers will see bad/poor service, frequent flyers, by definition and by the laws of probability, are more likely to encounter these examples of bad service by flying 10x 20x or 100x more frequently than the average.

 

[Borisdog]

Yes, I have it. But the point is that I shouldn't have to.

Quite right. Qantas don't have a monopoly on unmotivated or outright lazy employees though.

Everyone gets fobbed off by employees of businesses, I just mentioned Expert Flyer as a way of checking against this sort of buck pass in this instance.

 

[Toad]

IMHO QF does have loyalty in mind to the end beneficiary the "shareholders" LIke the banks the one way to beat them is to join them by buying the shares.