Is Sydney Really This Bad? [Lockout Laws]

[medhead]

Something I just thought: how are the statistics for "alcohol related violence" collected?

For example, if a patient comes into hospital, you would need to establish:

• The patient was involved in a case of violence.
• The violence was a result of alcohol, or highly probable. The patient could well be a "sober" victim and their "drunk" belligerent may or may not be hospitalised alongside them. To be related to alcohol, it probably has to be established via testimony suggesting significant mental impairment (due to alcohol from a "sober" baseline), and/or something like blood alcohol level.

Just seems confusing as someone would need to do a lot of connecting the dots with data not just collected by the hospital. My guess is that there is other violence which happens not necessarily alcohol-fuelled, though one could still make the argument that violence is violence and the lock out laws address all sorts of those, even if it is merely by limiting foot traffic and numbers.

Just based on watching TV. I'm pretty sure that they ask everyone in an emergency room for details on how they got there. It's all part of the clinical history. I imagine they probably have weekly case studies on 47 year old male presenting with XYZ condition. It might be extremely surprising the amount of detail that can be given about any particular patient's situation if, say, they have an incorrect x-ray or something. There are probably whole groups of managers sitting around tables looking at all this information so they can predict and budget for expected demand, and that sort of thing, applying 6 sigma and all that stuff.

I reckon hospital data is probably pretty good, just from watching TV. Take it as anecdote.

 

[moa999]

There's also quite a bit of sentiment there to apply lock down on Star Casino. The only difference is Star Casino is crawling with so much security and cameras, the idea would be that you would find yourself thrown out on your backside back on the street posthaste if you even look like you're about to **** up.

Like the poor French guy who was jumped on by 5/6 security guards on the gaming floor, and then dragged to the exit resulting in a leg broken in two place, and a gash above the eye.
All for apparently refusing to pour champagne into plastic glasses.

So much safer at #casinomike

 

[Princess Fiona]

Just based on watching TV. I'm pretty sure that they ask everyone in an emergency room for details on how they got there. It's all part of the clinical history. I imagine they probably have weekly case studies on 47 year old male presenting with XYZ condition. It might be extremely surprising the amount of detail that can be given about any particular patient's situation if, say, they have an incorrect x-ray or something. There are probably whole groups of managers sitting around tables looking at all this information so they can predict and budget for expected demand, and that sort of thing, applying 6 sigma and all that stuff.

I reckon hospital data is probably pretty good, just from watching TV. Take it as anecdote.

We decided that it would be good for us to look at our own hospital data for this stuff given that our area was the first to introduce new rules and sadly it wasn't good enough. Would need to be collected prospectively by a research assistant to be robust enough to analyze.

 

[anat0l]

Like the poor French guy who was jumped on by 5/6 security guards on the gaming floor, and then dragged to the exit resulting in a leg broken in two place, and a gash above the eye.
All for apparently refusing to pour champagne into plastic glasses.

So much safer at #casinomike

One could argue that had that bloke actually just followed the rules, he wouldn't be hurt.

This is not an argument of safety; it's an argument of whether the punishment matches the misdemeanour. And possibly one of security guard brutality. Now if the security personnel were actually out to maim this bloke, then we might have a real safety concern.

 

[medhead]

We decided that it would be good for us to look at our own hospital data for this stuff given that our area was the first to introduce new rules and sadly it wasn't good enough. Would need to be collected prospectively by a research assistant to be robust enough to analyze.

I can't imagine any doctor, like yourself, getting on TV and quoting numbers unless they were confident in those numbers. St Vincent's have this week felt confident enough to publish some numbers based on their experience.

 

[Dr Ralph]

Like the poor French guy who was jumped on by 5/6 security guards on the gaming floor, and then dragged to the exit resulting in a leg broken in two place, and a gash above the eye.
All for apparently refusing to pour champagne into plastic glasses.

So much safer at #casinomike

This is such a beat up.

I was present at the casino the night it occurred and saw a small fraction of the events.

I'd say, unless you were present. you've heard/seen about 5% of the story and it's this 5% that makes the casino look very bad.

The 10% of the story I witnessed makes the people involved look like criminals.

 

[Mal]

When will venues stop blaming the lockout laws for their ills - when it's clear it's a minor affect on them (Note - I'm not implying the lockout laws don't have an effect on bars and restaurants etc)

Sydney's lockout laws: Bar Century set to close as lockout laws blamed in part for downturn in trade

"Bar Century, guises of which have held licences in the same George Street spot since 1940, is to close after an untenable rent increase and the "contributing factor" of NSW state government drinking regulations, said manager Cavan Pugh."

So their main issue is high rent increases, and a landlord that wants them out for a replacement bar to be put in .... When will these businesses stop blaming the lockout laws as a convenient scapegoat?

 

[moa999]

And a bar that hadn't spent any money on its fitout in probably 20yrs and was will known for sticky floors -- charming.

The construction of apartments in the area has changed the crowd in that area

 

[scwappy]

Went to a concert last night. Was not able to buy a drink after 2200!!!

 

[DaveB]

Re: Is Sydney Really This Bad?

Wine and food bars are now springing up right across Sydney.
Yesterday took some US friends in town on the Pacific Princess to parts of Sydney they hadn't previously seen.
Paddy's Markets and coughle Bay for lunch, Balmoral Beach, North Head (absolute wow factor view down harbour) and a coffee and walk along Fairy Bower from Shelly Beach to Manly.
I am not sure if they were joking in now forgetting about their Florida winter home.

 

[BAM1748]

Like the poor French guy who was jumped on by 5/6 security guards on the gaming floor, and then dragged to the exit resulting in a leg broken in two place, and a gash above the eye.
All for apparently refusing to pour champagne into plastic glasses.

So much safer at #casinomike

Private security are just low level grunts, when I've been asked to do something by them I always ask them to call the real police whom instruction I will follow.

 

[BAM1748]

This is such a beat up.

I was present at the casino the night it occurred and saw a small fraction of the events.

I'd say, unless you were present. you've heard/seen about 5% of the story and it's this 5% that makes the casino look very bad.

The 10% of the story I witnessed makes the people involved look like criminals.

Hold or do nothing and call the police. If they are committing a crime then the police is your answer.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I can't imagine any doctor, like yourself, getting on TV and quoting numbers unless they were confident in those numbers. St Vincent's have this week felt confident enough to publish some numbers based on their experience.

Sadly some would (Wakefield and his Vaccination/Autism fraud for example). This is definitely not the case with the figures from St Vincent's though. I have every confidence in their research.

It should be noted that there is other Australian research on this which does not show the same results as Fulde et al.
This paper from Miller showed no long term impact on alcohol related emergency attendances in Ballarat following a lockout intervention.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22050294/

 

[moa999]

And a better study area than the CBD/Cross being a self-contained area with limited substitutes (ie. Going outside the lockout zone)

Personally I think the better way is to seriously enforce the RSA laws -- hand out a few big fines, station police in pubs/make them have dedicated RSA staff, and you stop the big issues, whilst still enabling shift workers/kitchen staff etc to have a drink after work.

The police presence in Kings Cross versus at the SCG/MCG was poor.

 

[OATEK]

When will venues stop blaming the lockout laws for their ills - when it's clear it's a minor affect on them (Note - I'm not implying the lockout laws don't have an effect on bars and restaurants etc)

Sydney's lockout laws: Bar Century set to close as lockout laws blamed in part for downturn in trade

"Bar Century, guises of which have held licences in the same George Street spot since 1940, is to close after an untenable rent increase and the "contributing factor" of NSW state government drinking regulations, said manager Cavan Pugh."

So their main issue is high rent increases, and a landlord that wants them out for a replacement bar to be put in .... When will these businesses stop blaming the lockout laws as a convenient scapegoat?

What a dishonest beat-up the the SMH.

There is a companion piece to this story which says through the first half how we have got it all wrong in Sydney, then completes the article with a bunch of very similar responses (perhaps harsher) in NZ and Ireland.

Sydney lockout laws: How cities around the world minimise alcohol-related violence

 

[Milefest]

The way I see it is that people have a choice to go out and enjoy themselves. Everyone knows the risks before going out and if that worries you (I've got some even more scary statistics on driving), have an early night/hang out with friends at home, no worries.

My problem is with state issued curfews, sure they might decrease violence to a small degree, but it causes a far greater impact to society in terms of jobs, business growth, cultural liveliness and citizen happiness.

If the problem was as serious as they say, the lockout should apply to the whole state and have absolutely no exemptions.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Kings Cross ER is back on channel 9 on Thursday nights. I think these are repeats. Should give an idea of the problem in emergency departments before lock out laws.

That same emergency department yesterday said they'd had a 25% drop in serious injury presentations between 6pm Friday and 6am Sunday in the year following the lock out laws. Also a reduction in frequency of presentations with alcohol related issues. And a reduction in severity with only 3 admissions to the intensive care unit from the entertainment precinct. No evidence of increased alcohol-related assualts in nearby areas, like newtown, bondi Beach or Coogee. full media release https://svhs.org.au/home/newsroom/announcements/liquor-laws-two-years-on


Meanwhile, my night time social activities in these areas have not been impacted.

Thanks for that. I hadn't read it.
The press release is centered around their research published in the MJA Nov 2015.
This is a good paper and it shows a significant reduction in serious injury presentations to the ED after the new laws were introduced.
https://www.mja.com.au/system/files/issues/203_09/10.5694mja15.00637.pdf
What makes it very interesting to me is that the authors looked at Australasian Triage Scale patients 1 and 2. This is the category that the Triage Nurse puts the patient into when they first see them. It is an assessment of the urgency with which they should be seen and treated. There are also patients who would have presented and been in categories 3, 4 and 5. They are not included in the paper. Their numbers would be far in excess of the ATS 1 and 2 patients.

It would be good to know if the same significant reduction was seen across all injury presentations related to alcohol as well as the subgroup of ATS 1 and 2.

Apologies for wandering very OT

 

[anat0l]

Went to a concert last night. Was not able to buy a drink after 2200!!!

Well, there's always the good ol' soft drinks... though that's then substituting a choice of alcoholic for sugar-olic.

Private security are just low level grunts, when I've been asked to do something by them I always ask them to call the real police whom instruction I will follow.

Sometimes it's better to move along as private security says rather than risk being conked on the head or having a limb broken. Bouncers can be worse in that regard.

And a better study area than the CBD/Cross being a self-contained area with limited substitutes (ie. Going outside the lockout zone)

Personally I think the better way is to seriously enforce the RSA laws -- hand out a few big fines, station police in pubs/make them have dedicated RSA staff, and you stop the big issues, whilst still enabling shift workers/kitchen staff etc to have a drink after work.

The police presence in Kings Cross versus at the SCG/MCG was poor.

What is RSA really? It sounds like placing the onus of ensuring a given person is not unduly intoxicated on the bar staff. Whilst staff probably shouldn't serve a drink to someone who seems drunk, it still shouldn't be their prime responsibility, let alone what happens to someone after they are intoxicated beyond the reasonable knowledge of the staff (e.g. if you get wasted and walk out of the bar then get hit by a car because you were acting like a fool on the street, that's your fault, not anyone else's, except possibly the driver of the car as well).

Then you get many - like on this forum - who think RSA is a farce, used by various licencees to limit alcohol being served or unfairly label people as unable to be served further drinks, and any disagreement to that sentiment is automatically treated as belligerence.

RSA paints venues into a corner which they can't win. If someone is looking wasted, for sure don't give them another drink, but if someone is wasted, it is their fault and they accept all consequences that befall them (unless it can be proven that someone made them involuntarily consume all that alcohol, or if their drinks were spiked, or so on). Someone may be wasted but may not hurt anyone, offend anyone, deface any property and may just make it home perfectly fine. That's OK. Certainly RSA doesn't mean that the venues get a gold star for every patron who got home safely for which they successfully withheld the sale of excess alcohol.


Another thought - is there an interesting way that late night entertainment could adapt around the lockout laws but still have a viable operation similar to before? For those saying, "just go back to how it was umpteen decades ago when less people were killed or in hospital," no, that is not what I'm referring to...

 

[medhead]

What is RSA really? It sounds like placing the onus of ensuring a given person is not unduly intoxicated on the bar staff. Whilst staff probably shouldn't serve a drink to someone who seems drunk, it still shouldn't be their prime responsibility, let alone what happens to someone after they are intoxicated beyond the reasonable knowledge of the staff (e.g. if you get wasted and walk out of the bar then get hit by a car because you were acting like a fool on the street, that's your fault, not anyone else's, except possibly the driver of the car as well).

Then you get many - like on this forum - who think RSA is a farce, used by various licencees to limit alcohol being served or unfairly label people as unable to be served further drinks, and any disagreement to that sentiment is automatically treated as belligerence.

RSA paints venues into a corner which they can't win. If someone is looking wasted, for sure don't give them another drink, but if someone is wasted, it is their fault and they accept all consequences that befall them (unless it can be proven that someone made them involuntarily consume all that alcohol, or if their drinks were spiked, or so on). Someone may be wasted but may not hurt anyone, offend anyone, deface any property and may just make it home perfectly fine. That's OK. Certainly RSA doesn't mean that the venues get a gold star for every patron who got home safely for which they successfully withheld the sale of excess alcohol.


Another thought - is there an interesting way that late night entertainment could adapt around the lockout laws but still have a viable operation similar to before? For those saying, "just go back to how it was umpteen decades ago when less people were killed or in hospital," no, that is not what I'm referring to...

You're repeating a few things you've said before. RSA is about he bar staff assessing the patron and refusing service if they think the patron is intoxicated. Looking at behaviour and actions, etc. That absolutely does not create a responsibility of anything that befalls the patron after they leave the venue. I really don't know why you're repeating this idea. If someone is a fool on the road and gets killed there is no fall back on the venue/s where they drank.

Responsible Service of Alcohol. As in being responsible in deciding to whom you sell booze. Not being responsible for the actions of some who buys booze from you.

As for stupid RSA. I think you've seen me walk. I have trouble at times because of a muscle condition. I've had bars refuse me service before I've even had a drink for the day (>18 hours) because they've seen me walking up the 3 stairs at the front of the venue. No explanation accepted. That's kinda stupid.

Then on another night I fully fell over crossing the road to get to a venue, I'd had a couple of drinks. Mates picked me up. They told the bouncers I have a disability. I told them the name of it in latin. They said if you can repeat that you're in, and I could. I assume repeating long latin words was good enough for them to assess that RSA didn't need to be applied to me. (Yet)

 

[jastel]

Qld is trying to follow these stupid lockout laws.
Nobody deserves to be assaulted by a drunken moron, but that moron should bear FULL responsibility for their actions.
Penalties should be doubled if you are drunk/drugged not mitigated.
Punish those who misbehave but leave the rest of us alone...

Other factors not considered are drugs, people on ice cannot be reasoned with.
Transport, closing All venues at x am will overtax transport systems and dump a heap of agro people on the street at once, rather than allowing people to go home at their leisure.
Same goes for the Police and Kebab shops, much better to have a steady flow than a mass crowd.
Many people get smashed at home before they go into town, they go to town as they cant party in suburbia after 10pm.