A discussion on the ethics and legality of scripting 1 cent transactions!

[get me outta here]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Perhaps a BW / Comm bank employee?

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Perhaps a BW / Comm bank employee?

Probably their social media liaison officer.

 

[medhead]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Aren't you clever letting Bankwest and Qantas know that!

While the tit for tat discussion is pretty boring, ISTR you entering this thread by saying BW already know. In which case, it's probably not such a big deal to let them know again. But then I don't have 30 years in banking - what would I know.

You are even more clever than I thought.

No one at BWA will ever think to look for the highest amount of points paid on a BWA FF account.

Thats genius.

You guys need to realise that what you're doing with the Macro and $0.01 transactions disrupts the payment system and is tantamount to fraud. Its just so borderline on the last front its not funny. I know that technically you can do what youre doing, however if you have to build a macro to manipulate a billers website to get your end goal then its a problem and we all end up paying for it.

Just because you can do something , doesnt mean you should.

Taking me on is fine, however have a look at my posts and the level of detail that I go into when it comes to talking about wholesale weighted average interchange, card types, product and trends as well as processes and risk. This should give you a clue as to who you are dealing with.

From a purely academic point of view, I'd be interested to understand how this could be considered fraud. Where is the misrepresentation?

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

From a purely academic point of view, I'd be interested to understand how this could be considered fraud. Where is the misrepresentation?

Don't get started on the legal stuff, he's clearly a banker not a lawyer! All this stuff about the banks can say whatever they want in their T&CS, or even not say it and just make stuff up on the fly. Reminds me of the recent Citibank fiasco.

 

[medhead]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I'm still interested in the reasoning by which it could be considered fraud, for my own edification.

Don't get started on the legal stuff, he's clearly a banker not a lawyer! All this stuff about the banks can say whatever they want in their T&CS, or even not say it and just make stuff up on the fly. Reminds me of the recent Citibank fiasco.

 

[Nutcase]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

he's clearly a banker not a lawyer! .

Both.

I don't want to fan the flames of this too much. Ive already had a warning shot across the bow. I thought I was being fairly reasonable.

To answer the question about "Why is this fraud"? My response is this;

A Macro is flying around that manipulates Telstra's website (and others) and bills a BWA debit card in $0.01 increments by the thousand. Thats so close to fraud on its own its not funny.

Add into the mix that you now know how many transactions you can do within set time frames, when to swap out debit cards, set up multiple accounts across other family members and when to order new cards and we have one very interesting picture. There are also PM requests in there as well.

600,000 points have been accrued this way by one member. That has a street value of how much? $6000 - $12,000 as a minimum.

Most reasonable people would consider this fraud and with others involved collusion.

There is no LOL or smiley face after this post.

 

[Kangol]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

To answer the question about "Why is this fraud"? My response is this;

A Macro is flying around that manipulates Telstra's website (and others) and bills a BWA debit card in $0.01 increments by the thousand. Thats so close to fraud on its own its not funny.

What is the legal definition of fraud?
From someone who has made some indication of being a lawyer, I'd be interested in what you have to say...

 

[JohnK]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Interesting twist to the plot.

Lets see how long the party lasts

Qantas does not care. Bankwest has no idea or if they do they are certainly not doing anything about it.

 

[Nutcase]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

What is the legal definition of fraud?
From someone who has made some indication of being a lawyer, I'd be interested in what you have to say...

I don't have my lawyers hat on to give you the answer to this for obvious reasons.
Wikipedia has it nailed. Im deliberately using this source.

a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain

When seen in the context of the use of a macro, multiple cards, accounts and people then I think we have that definition covered.

 

[medhead]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I don't have my lawyers hat on to give you the answer to this for obvious reasons. Even Wikipedia has it nailed. Im deliberately using this source.

a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain

When seen in the context of the use of a macro, multiple cards, accounts and people then I think we have that definition covered.

I fail to see any deception. Hypothetically, I'm a person paying a bill in my name with a card, or cards, in my name. If we look at the case of multiple cards per account, BW were happy to issue those cards to the person who is the owner of the account. But I can see something about lying to obtain multiple cards.

criminality or wrongfulness in me paying my bills with my card is pretty hard to see. Again the person is being entirely open in who they are and what they are doing.

It is pretty hard to see the point about manipulating a website. The macro is using the website exactly as it is designed to be used, it just automates the data input and key/mouse responses. If getting program to enter 1234... into a box on a website is manipulation then does it follow that me typing that same text into that same box is also website manipulation. Lets compare to a real world example of mowing the lawn, should I be out there with a scythe instead of a motorised grass cutting machine?

Finally, the personal gain side of it. BW are offering an inducement to get people to use their product. If we take the view that accepting that inducement is wrongful personal gain then all loyalty programs need to be shut down immediately.

Let's take this idea of fraud and ponder the question of buying a coffee. I buy 1 coffee, I get 5 points. What if I buy 50 coffees a day, is that fraud now? What if I make 50x $4 or $3 or $2 or $1 payments to telstra a day, is that fraud. I totally get the point about the cost to BW. But the fact that they might have realised a problem with the product they have offered does not make the people using their product criminals.

 

[Nutcase]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I fail to see any deception. Hypothetically, I'm a person paying a bill in my name with a card, or cards, in my name. If we look at the case of multiple cards per account, BW were happy to issue those cards to the person who is the owner of the account. But I can see something about lying to obtain multiple cards.

criminality or wrongfulness in me paying my bills with my card is pretty hard to see. Again the person is being entirely open in who they are and what they are doing.

It is pretty hard to see the point about manipulating a website. The macro is using the website exactly as it is designed to be used, it just automates the data input and key/mouse responses. If getting program to enter 1234... into a box on a website is manipulation then does it following that me typing that same text into that same box is also website manipulation.

Finally, the personal gain side of it. BW are offering an inducement to get people to use their product. If we are take we view that accepting that inducement is wrongful personal gain then all loyalty programs need to be shut down immediately.

Let's take this idea of fraud and ponder the question of buying a coffee. I buy 1 coffee, I get 5 points. What if I buy 50 coffees a day, is that fraud now? What if I make 50x $4 or $3 or $2 or $1 payments to telstra a day, is that fraud. I totally get the point about the cost to BW. But the fact that they might have realised a problem with the product they have offered does not make the people using their product criminals.

This guy isn't buying 50 coffees.

He's buying 1 coffee with 50 seperate transactions. In fact, he's not even buying the coffee. He is in credit with at least one biller.

I know that you cant see that this is fraud, however when you factor in the other moving parts, the abuse of the product and manipulation to get the outcome and the definition is met.

As far as deception is concerned, I would think that building a macro to make thousands of $0.01 transactions on a billers website to pay a bill when one single transaction would achieve the outcome of the bill being paid qualifies as deception.

 

[trixydoza]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I know that you cant see that this is fraud, however factor in the other moving parts, the abuse of the product and manipulation to get the outcome and the definition is met.

It's a pity you can't articulate the point a little better if you're so convinced it's fraud, because it's not in the least clear from the way you've explained it, and it doesn't help that you've refused to provide a definition as to just what constitutes "fraud" in a legal as opposed to outraged-observer sense. Use of a macro means essentially nothing whether part of a package or otherwise.

 

[medhead]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

This guy isn't buying 50 coffees.

He's buying 1 coffee with 50 seperate transactions.

I know that you cant see that this is fraud, however factor in the other moving parts, the abuse of the product and manipulation to get the outcome and the definition is met.

well the coffee isn't the perfect analogy, granted. But they are not buying 1 product in 50 transactions. My phone bill includes 100s of items. my electricity bill is also for multiple items (I might like to pay per electron ).

What is lacking is deception, surely that is a required element.

What manipulation? The websites are being used precisely as designed - enter information, make a payment of the customer desired amount. The biller lets you pay in increments. It is pretty hard to see manipulation in someone using the provided capability.

What abuse of product? I see a failure in designing the product. That's an issue entirely for the people who made the product. They can't blame someone else for their failures.

 

[Nutcase]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

It's a pity you can't articulate the point a little better if you're so convinced it's fraud, because it's not in the least clear from the way you've explained it, and it doesn't help that you've refused to provide a definition as to just what constitutes "fraud" in a legal as opposed to outraged-observer sense. Use of a macro means essentially nothing whether part of a package or otherwise.

OK well thats your prerogative to disagree.

The definition given is very succinct and I believe from my Banker's perspective to be accurate in this instance. Outraged observer is dropping into ad hominem which Im not going to entertain.

 

[Nutcase]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I see a failure in designing the product. That's an issue entirely for the people who made the product.

Yes, the product is flawed however this is not an excuse to exploit that for personal gain to the tune of 600,000 points.

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

This guy isn't buying 50 coffees.

He's buying 1 coffee with 50 seperate transactions.

Which payment method the vendor has quite happily accepted over a period of over a year without ever once asking him to desist. BWA are clearly aware of this, if they feel its abuse/fraud, why have they not said so? No vendor is required to accept 1c payments as payment but if you do so and continue to do so without once objecting its pretty hard to come back over year later and claim you don't accept this method of payment, there's a pretty clear pattern of acceptance that has been established here.

 

[NoName]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

The fact that NAB paid out to the guy who topped up his toll account 1c at a time a few years ago should make it glaringly obvious that there is nothing illegal about this behaviour. If their legal team had have thought for a second that they might win in court they would have booted him to the curb without paying a single point. Of course we know they gave him the hundreds of thousands of points he was entitled to because they knew he did nothing wrong in a legal sense.

 

[Nutcase]

Which payment method the vendor has quite happily accepted over a period of over a year without ever once asking him to desist. BWA are clearly aware of this, if they feel its abuse/fraud, why have they not said so? No vendor is required to accept 1c payments as payment but if you do so and continue to do so without once objecting its pretty hard to come back over year later and claim you don't accept this method of payment, there's a pretty clear pattern of acceptance that has been established here.

CURRENCY ACT 1965 - SECT 16 Legal tender

If this were hard currency then the maximum would be 20 x $0.01 transactions.

The OP has found a flawed product and a biller who will allow $0.01 transactions. This does not negate the fact that he is committing fraud and acting dishonestly just that he is good at finding loopholes in biller systems. He has built a macro to exploit this, had multiple cards issued, has timed the transactions to know the maximums and opened multiple accounts for other members of his family to achieve all this when all he is doing is paying a bill which is usually 1 transaction per month. He is also over paying his bill and going into credit.

Thats pretty deceptive conduct don't you think?

The fact that NAB paid out to the guy who topped up his toll account 1c at a time a few years ago should make it glaringly obvious that there is nothing illegal about this behaviour. If their legal team had have thought for a second that they might win in court they would have booted him to the curb without paying a single point. Of course we know they gave him the hundreds of thousands of points he was entitled to because they knew he did nothing wrong in a legal sense.

Did he build a Macro do to that?
Did he open multiple accounts with other family members?
Did he have multiple cards issued to achieve this?

 

[NoName]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Did he build a Macro do to that?
Did he open multiple accounts with other family members?
Did he have multiple cards issued to achieve this?

Not that any of those things are at all relevant because all are allowed by the bank/merchant but yes, I'd say there's a fair chance he used a macro to make several thousand payments in a short space of time.

 

[trixydoza]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Did he build a Macro do to that?
Did he open multiple accounts with other family members?
Did he have multiple cards issued to achieve this?

Is any of those acts "fraudulent" in any way?