Reduction in Transfer Rates to Velocity/Krisflyer

[Glider_]

This is fantastic news and I feel like we triumphed over injustice.


I also think that SQ award flights are about to become very scarce indeed.

 

[Spizz]

I want to thank daveozsydney for all the work he did. The members/customers here for applying pressure to Citi via phone, email and Facebook. To Pointhacks. And also to David over on AUSBT.com.au for bringing this news to a wider audience and seeking an offical response from Citi.

It seems Citibank have added a new clause now that will let them change this transfer rate again without notice. From a post by Michael over on AUSBT-

I want you to pay attention to clause 3.6.4 which states:"We may change the POINT TRANSFER program rule......in whole or in part AT ANY TIME with or without notice."So if they decide to devalue again after 10 minutes of reverting to the old rate, they can do so according to this new T&C.

Though you would think they would learn from their mistakes and not do this again and give 90 days notice.

But just in case I'm going to do a few things

- Push more through my Amex card for local spend
- Transfer my points except for 15000 over to SQ (knowing full well of the 3 year expiry, though I intend to use my points within that period, especially considering you can book a year out so that really makes it 4 years to use them)
- The 15000 points will allow me to empty my account if I need to without leaving any behind
- Keep my Citi card for Overseas spend and in those instances where Amex is not accepted locally

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I'm actually not sure whether the new clause would be valid, nor that it would pass a test by the ACCC.

If Citi determined say at their January board meeting that they were going to devalue the points conversion from 1 July, but failed to update their website accordingly, it would still leave customers earning points at 1.5:1 which Citi had no intention of honouring. That could potentially be misleading.

The new clause will almost certainly need to be prominently brought to the attention of all card holders... probably via a separate email, clearly stating the clause is now in operation. And even if they did do that, it might still fail the unfair contract terms Act.

 

[lm118]

I had a call back from Citibank to confirm the change back to the old rate, effective from Saturday.

Interestingly, I asked about notification of future changes. The rep said we would be notified...in the coming weeks. So I believe the changes are just around the corner. Better transfer while you can!

 

[M@rcoPolo]

However the rocket scientist at Citi that pitched how much money the bank would save with this move to his superiors hmmm. What do you think of his future prospects??

This could be the case (sadly) but realistically it's his/her superiors that should cop it.

Management that takes the glory in good times and blames their reports in poor times is simply bad management.

 

[burmans]

Statement to Ausbt from Citi: Citibank backs down on changes to credit card frequent flyer rates - Australian Business Traveller

Superb effort all round. How soon after they return to the old do we expect to receive the notification that they will be changing, any bets? I think maybe they will take greater care of getting this right legally this time, as they have discovered getting your T&C's is something you should be careful of!

 

[CJEMNMAC]

Here is something off the Citi Rewards T&C site. In Citi Rewards the redemption of airlines points and the like is referred to as point transfers....

I am not suggesting this has been changed.. Just that there are alot of T&C that apply to many different scenarios..

3.6.4. We may change the Points Transfer program rules including participation of travel loyalty program providers, regulations, policies, benefits, conditions of participation or points/mileage levels (if applicable), in whole or in part at any time with or without notice.

Who writes this stuff ....

3.6.1. You must accept these Points Transfer Terms and Conditions in order to transfer your available and qualifying Points or Miles to participating Travel Loyalty Programs.

 

[Spizz]

Just had a phone call from Citi. They said from Saturday midnight the website should be updated with the old transfer rate, but to be safe to wait until Monday before doing a transfer.

Thing is considering the events of the past few days I don't know if it would be safe to wait until Monday to do a transfer

 

[perthtraveller]

Thank you to everyone who made the effort to lodge complaints with Citi and the relevant regulatory bodies. Great result considering what could have been.

Just had a call with a Citi rep.

Was told the following:
1. Transfer rates will revert Saturday midday
2. Citi will notify customers in advance of these particular proposed transfer rate changes for SQ and VA
3. Could not confirm how they will approach future changes to the program - i.e. whether they will (a) write better T&Cs to allow them to follow through with providing no advance notification to customers about future changes, or (b) take a more "customer-friendly" approach and provide advance notification of future changes

Told the rep that item 3 will inform my decision as to whether I will continue to do business with Citi in the future. He agreed. Poor guy.

 

[burmans]

Seriously?

they have admitted a mistake, fallen on the sword, and reverted to the previous terms. That suggest that they *can* be trusted. Every service provider provides good service and the occasional bad. The only way to find out if they provide even better service is how they deal with the mistakes.

Even so, I beleive Citibank acted in accordance with their T&C, I thought the wording was very clear. The mistake they made was a customer relations/publicity one, that's all.

Do you work for a financial provider perchance?

 

[DC3]

There would be relatively few Citi customers who would be aware of any of this, I would think. Only those on forums such as this.

 

[bigsleep55]

Thanks again and we will keep you posted.
Dave

Thanks Dave!

Hey, maybe the best thing to come from all the kerfuffle was this:

Spent about an hour on the phone yesterday calling on behalf of my boss (let's call her Skyler).

Skyler stood to lose (what I calculated) $160k worth of points value.

Call Centre Operator (let’s call him Jessie) tried to argue the 'goods & services point’ at which time I respectfully disagreed and then began to recite the T&Cs (putting emphasis in bold):

"If we change the rate at which all Points in the program are generally earned or converted we will give you 90 days written notice of that change"

Jessie to offered 5000 points. I scoffed and ask if he could see Skyler's points balance (in excess of 18 million points).

Jessie kept putting me on hold and referring to a supervisor.

Seemed like Jessie (with direction from his supervisor) was putting pressure on me to formally request that we transfer all 16 million points across at the old transfer rates (1.5:1). I knew Skyler wouldn't want her points stored at some crummy airline lock up storage, having to constantly check and spray for insects. Never knowing if they were just going to expire at any time.

I stopped him and said "obviously you are speaking to a supervisor, let me list exactly what Skyler would like for this issue to be resolved and for Skyler not to be disadvantaged by this change of transfer rates, then you can present it to your supervisor"

So I gave Skyler's demands...

- compensation of 6.4 million Citi Points
- plus about 200k of future lost points due to lack of 90 day notice

Jessie noted it all down and said it would take 3-5 business days to get a result. I have to say, he was very polite throughout and I was too. He said 'Yo' a little too often for my liking. No case number, only record of this is his name and his extension which apparently will link to all the file notes. I did press him several times for more, something like a case number or call log, he couldn't give anything. Don't know if I was duped here? Jessie knows the business side of this far more than I. I'm just the cook who accrues the points.

 

[Isochronous]

It was a team effort. Also isochronous did a lot of legal research in a different time zone so big hats off to him...

legal action parked now and hopefully not required if Citibank act in good faith...

Very happy to play my part in getting a good result!

I want to thank daveozsydney for all the work he did. The members/customers here for applying pressure to Citi via phone, email and Facebook. To Pointhacks. And also to David over on AUSBT.com.au for bringing this news to a wider audience and seeking an offical response from Citi.

It seems Citibank have added a new clause now that will let them change this transfer rate again without notice. From a post by Michael over on AUSBT-



Though you would think they would learn from their mistakes and not do this again and give 90 days notice.

But just in case I'm going to do a few things

- Push more through my Amex card for local spend
- Transfer my points except for 15000 over to SQ (knowing full well of the 3 year expiry, though I intend to use my points within that period, especially considering you can book a year out so that really makes it 4 years to use them)
- The 15000 points will allow me to empty my account if I need to without leaving any behind
- Keep my Citi card for Overseas spend and in those instances where Amex is not accepted locally

Even this clause may not be legal. Section 24(1) of the Australian Consumer Law prohibits unfair contract terms. A term will be considered an unfair term and thus void if:

(a) it would cause a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract; and (b) it is not reasonably necessary in order to protect the legitimate interests of the party who would be advantaged by the term; and
(c) it would cause detriment (whether financial or otherwise) to a party if it were to be applied or relied on.

Section 24(4) places the burden on the party seeking the advantage of the term (i.e. Citi) to prove that it is reasonably necessary. I still do not see why it is necessary that Citibank have the right to devalue the conversion rate without notice.

Ladies, Gents,

It appears People Power prevailed and we may just have won!

I got a written PM on Facebook also

"Hi David. The conversion rate for the two airline programs will be returned to the rate that applied at 31 October. Thanks!"

It seems the threat of legal action and the comprehensive breach of so many laws and loss of customer goodwill has convinced them to change this decision.

As a result of this, we will put the legal letter on hold (a shame really, as it was such a good letter in the end!) but saves everyone a lot of hassle.

I have also asked Citibank if they will be compensating people with some bonus points as a thankyou for all the time spent/wasted on this...

Thank you everyone for responding so quickly and getting behind this. It shows if we combine resources we really can make huge organisations change their ways.
In fact huge organisations come down to just the individuals within them and a lot of people at Citibank would also have been taken by surprise on this one.

Thanks to AFF for providing this resource and Pointhacks and Ausbt for their coverage.
I've conversed with many of you over the past few days and happy to be a part of this community...

to be continued.....

Too bad we didn't get the amusement/pleasure from flooding Citi with multiple people sending in that letter! But good to have the points restored.

 

[madmouse58]

after lurking for a long time, I decided to make an account to properly thank the AFF community in resolving this

Thanks everyone!

 

[mmchow]

A big round of applause to Dave and all the AFF members. United we stand strong. Well done guys.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Even this clause may not be legal. Section 24(1) of the Australian Consumer Law prohibits unfair contract terms. A term will be considered an unfair term and thus void if:

(a) it would cause a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract; and (b) it is not reasonably necessary in order to protect the legitimate interests of the party who would be advantaged by the term; and
(c) it would cause detriment (whether financial or otherwise) to a party if it were to be applied or relied on.

Section 24(4) places the burden on the party seeking the advantage of the term (i.e. Citi) to prove that it is reasonably necessary. I still do not see why it is necessary that Citibank have the right to devalue the conversion rate without notice.

As I mentioned earlier, it may be that Citi makes the term sufficiently transparent - ie clearly brings it to the attention of consumers.

Satisfying that it is in the business interest may also be fairly easy, but arguable that they could split any terms and condition into two parts (a) matters within Citi's control and (b) matters wholly outside Citi's control.

 

[burmans]

I want to thank daveozsydney for all the work he did. The members/customers here for applying pressure to Citi via phone, email and Facebook. To Pointhacks. And also to David over on AUSBT.com.au for bringing this news to a wider audience and seeking an offical response from Citi.

It seems Citibank have added a new clause now that will let them change this transfer rate again without notice. From a post by Michael over on AUSBT-



Though you would think they would learn from their mistakes and not do this again and give 90 days notice.

But just in case I'm going to do a few things

- Push more through my Amex card for local spend
- Transfer my points except for 15000 over to SQ (knowing full well of the 3 year expiry, though I intend to use my points within that period, especially considering you can book a year out so that really makes it 4 years to use them)
- The 15000 points will allow me to empty my account if I need to without leaving any behind
- Keep my Citi card for Overseas spend and in those instances where Amex is not accepted locally

So they have now changed their Terms and Conditions without notice which in itself breaches point 2 of 6.2. they just don't learn these guys. And who was it suggesting this was just an error not a massive breach of good faith (yep and I can see two more pigs just flying by my office!)

We will give you 30 days written notice of other changes to these Rewards Program Terms and Conditions;

 

[burmans]

after lurking for a long time, I decided to make an account to properly thank the AFF community in resolving this

Thanks everyone!

Welcome madmouse58, I'm sure you will find reasons to stick around, it can become addictive on this forum!

 

[token01]

Bloody well done. Top effort. Amazing. will be transferring as soon as the rate updates on the site. shaking my head in amazement at their updated conditions.

Shoutout to Dave and Iso and the rest of the boys and girls who spearheaded the charge.

Maybe an AFF dinner to celebrate this.

Further shoutout to the 16million point member, I hope you feel better and likewise all the others no matter how big or small in balance.

Had a little faith restored in people power and unity today.

Steaming Willi Beamed Them. That will teach them to mess with the Affers

 

[ninja-tim]

Thank you to everyone who made the effort to lodge complaints with Citi and the relevant regulatory bodies. Great result considering what could have been.

Just had a call with a Citi rep.

Was told the following:
1. Transfer rates will revert Saturday midday
2. Citi will notify customers in advance of these particular proposed transfer rate changes for SQ and VA
3. Could not confirm how they will approach future changes to the program - i.e. whether they will (a) write better T&Cs to allow them to follow through with providing no advance notification to customers about future changes, or (b) take a more "customer-friendly" approach and provide advance notification of future changes

Told the rep that item 3 will inform my decision as to whether I will continue to do business with Citi in the future. He agreed. Poor guy.

I don't get point 2 as they've changed the T&Cs to say no notice is required? Conflicting much?

Anyways, thanks heaps to Dave and the other AFF members who were getting ready to battle it out legally with Citi on behalf of all of us and everyone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, still haven't received a reply via the secure email, but I only sent it early yesterday. I wonder if they'll offer any compensation for "stress, suffering and wasting everyones time", but I doubt it.

Are people still going to use their Sig/Plat cards?
I guess I will, but obviously transfer points across more frequently.