Western Sydney Airport (WSI) Discussion

[jpp42]

I don't think it will be uncommon for A380s to divert there every now and then.

In the situations where we see A380 diversions due to fog at SYD (usually they go to MEL), would WSI be a suitable point? They can then just bus the passengers to SYD. Or is it likely that fog would affect both areas at once - I'm not sure if WSI still being in the coughberland Plain is affected by the same weather conditions typically?

 

[jase05]

Probably zero given they’re not building A380s anymore and those flying might be retired before serious long haul flights start operating out of WSI.

EK have said that they can still see the A380’s used well into the 2030’s and even early 2040’s so I wouldn’t be surprised if one of their daily’s ends up out there

 

[PERLHR]

I really hope they don't muck this up in terms of operators and schedules. It's so easy to happen. Can we expect say a Stansted type operation mostly LCC carriers with a sprinkle of long haul? Will the likes of virgin and Qantas "split"some of their domestics to run from both (same frequency but different airports out of Sydney).? Will landing fees be a fundamental influence? Will.any new start from anywhere to Sydney be offered only slots at the new airport?

Interesting and indeed I need to read more about it.

 

[jpp42]

I really hope they don't muck this up in terms of operators and schedules. It's so easy to happen. Can we expect say a Stansted type operation mostly LCC carriers with a sprinkle of long haul?

This is everyone's expectation in the short term, yes. Long haul would probably only be LCC, like Jetstar or Air Asia, maybe Scoot. There's no way Emirates or SIA (mainline) are moving here anytime soon. It's simply not where the high-yield and connecting passengers are.

Will the likes of virgin and Qantas "split"some of their domestics to run from both (same frequency but different airports out of Sydney).?

It will be a slow start, the question is whether it ends up like Avalon or Gold Coast? All bets are it being more like Gold Coast simply due to the proximity to large numbers of residents who would provide domestic demand. But it won't be the same frequency of course, SYD will retain the lion's share for the next 10-15 years at least. Note that Virgin and Rex haven't even yet committed to flying at all from WSI, although if Qantas starts putting some capital city flights there, the others will probably follow. But if it's just a few Jetstars a day like Avalon, they may not feel the need to compete. It's a commercial decision for these airlines and there are many ways it could end up, outside the control of airport management.

Will landing fees be a fundamental influence? Will.any new start from anywhere to Sydney be offered only slots at the new airport?

Interesting and indeed I need to read more about it.

The two airports are under different management and I don't think slot management / control at SYD has any impact on what goes on at WSI. There's no unifying authority that would manage something like that to my understanding (at least for domestic... international slot management is another beast).

 

[RooFlyer]

I imagine the airlines will want to offload some of the pesky (relatively) low-yielding routes/services from SYD to WSI to make way for better yielding routes on the available SYD slots. And have lower fares to WSI to 'encourage' pax to go there.

I imagine also there will be less tolerance for curfew-time landings at SYD if there is a nearby port that can accept the flight. Although if international, whether Border Force would still be there is another question.

 

[jase05]

This is everyone's expectation in the short term, yes. Long haul would probably only be LCC, like Jetstar or Air Asia, maybe Scoot. There's no way Emirates or SIA (mainline) are moving here anytime soon. It's simply not where the high-yield and connecting passengers are.



It will be a slow start, the question is whether it ends up like Avalon or Gold Coast? All bets are it being more like Gold Coast simply due to the proximity to large numbers of residents who would provide domestic demand. But it won't be the same frequency of course, SYD will retain the lion's share for the next 10-15 years at least. Note that Virgin and Rex haven't even yet committed to flying at all from WSI, although if Qantas starts putting some capital city flights there, the others will probably follow. But if it's just a few Jetstars a day like Avalon, they may not feel the need to compete. It's a commercial decision for these airlines and there are many ways it could end up, outside the control of airport management.



The two airports are under different management and I don't think slot management / control at SYD has any impact on what goes on at WSI. There's no unifying authority that would manage something like that to my understanding (at least for domestic... international slot management is another beast).

Obviously there is going to be some spruiking but we have been involved in regular meetings/strategic plans etc since day dot and they have some very big ambitions and last year they had stated that they already had several MOU’s from major airlines that were interested in either adding extra services or moving slots from SYD. I guess we will find out in due time

 

[docjames]

I picture short term it’ll be akin to Stanstead v Heathrow, but over time will morph more into a Gatwick v Heathrow similarity……

 

[justinbrett]

EK have said that they can still see the A380’s used well into the 2030’s and even early 2040’s so I wouldn’t be surprised if one of their daily’s ends up out there

In terms of traffic rights, if they exclude WSI from the capacity restrictions then I can definitely see QR and others going out there, but since EK have more rights than they know what to do with I don't see why EK would go to WSI. 787/A350 at best, but I would tip zero. As far as geographic preference goes I would say CBR has more demand than WSI, and they haven't made that work.

As far as airport slots go, that's a non issue, SYD will move heaven and earth to make room for an A380 service, given the increased revenue. Price out the shorter route LCC carriers to move them to WSI and make room for the heavies at SYD. As it should be.

I don't think there will be many full service long haul carriers operating at WSI until the parallel runway and associated new terminals are built, which is many decades away (if ever).

Of course freight is another story.

In the situations where we see A380 diversions due to fog at SYD (usually they go to MEL), would WSI be a suitable point? They can then just bus the passengers to SYD. Or is it likely that fog would affect both areas at once - I'm not sure if WSI still being in the coughberland Plain is affected by the same weather conditions typically?

It would depend on the day - probably more likely WSI is foggy and SYD is clear, but as WSI is getting a Cat III-B ILS it will usually be just fine.

 

[elanshin]

This is everyone's expectation in the short term, yes. Long haul would probably only be LCC, like Jetstar or Air Asia, maybe Scoot. There's no way Emirates or SIA (mainline) are moving here anytime soon. It's simply not where the high-yield and connecting passengers are.

Actually i wouldn't be surprised to see MH, CX and maybe even SQ go very very quickly after launch or even at launch. Pull one or add one to their Sydney offering because now WSI opens up for late night Sydney departure (00:00 > 02:00) which connects very nicely into their morning operations. MH and CX both already have super late night out of MEL.

A 00:00 departure for SQ would arrive into Changi around 06:00 local time.

I wonder if airlines will also divert to WSI from SYD on super late arrivals that are past curfew now.

 

[dajop]

Actually i wouldn't be surprised to see MH, CX and maybe even SQ go very very quickly after launch or even at launch. Pull one or add one to their Sydney offering because now WSI opens up for late night Sydney departure (00:00 > 02:00) which connects very nicely into their morning operations. MH and CX both already have super late night out of MEL.

I wonder if airlines will also divert to WSI from SYD on super late arrivals that are past curfew now.

Was going to say exactly the same thing. Various carriers have banks of flights during that time window out of MEL (TG, MH, SQ, FJ, CX,) so wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them might schedule a midnight service out of WSI to connect with their morning bank of flights. Before Covid, SQ used to do such a service out of SYD, leaving mid evening via CBR.

 

[elanshin]

Was going to say exactly the same thing. Various carriers have banks of flights during that time window out of MEL (TG, MH, SQ, FJ, CX,) so wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them might schedule a midnight service out of WSI to connect with their morning bank of flights. Before Covid, SQ used to do such a service out of SYD, leaving mid evening via CBR.

Actually, could the sad reality be that some of those late night MEL departures be moved to WSI instead. Use QF/VA MEL - WSI to connect on if they feel "Sydney" sells better for the flight marketing.

 

[Eastwick20]

I really hope they don't muck this up in terms of operators and schedules. It's so easy to happen. Can we expect say a Stansted type operation mostly LCC carriers with a sprinkle of long haul?

Stansted is the 4th busiest airport in the UK so I should think they would be very happy with that sort of success!

 

[justinbrett]

Stansted is the 4th busiest airport in the UK so I should think they would be very happy with that sort of success!

Only because of Ryanair!

 

[moa999]

Various carriers have banks of flights during that time window out of MEL (TG, MH, SQ, FJ, CX,) so wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them might schedule a midnight service

But setting up another base is costly.. and probably depends on what the lounge situation is. Not so premium if no lounge for J/R pax

It's only in the last year or so that Adelaide has had an international lounge (Plaza Premium). Before then it was just the domestic lounges prior to security.

Wouldn't be surprised to see QF use WSI for some back of clock flights to NZ arriving early NZ time, maybe timed with a later departure inbound from PER.

Current latest departure from SYD to AKL around 7.30pm.

 

[elanshin]

But setting up another base is costly.. and probably depends on what the lounge situation is. Not so premium if no lounge for J/R pax

It's only in the last year or so that Adelaide has had an international lounge (Plaza Premium). Before then it was just the domestic lounges prior to security.

Wouldn't be surprised to see QF use WSI for some back of clock flights to NZ arriving early NZ time, maybe timed with a later departure inbound from PER.

Current latest departure from SYD to AKL around 7.30pm.

Surely QF will setup an international J lounge minimum at WSI. So OW would be sorted for MH, CX, QR, FJ, AA. As for Star A, i can see WSI being the hub in the long run for AI and NZ would also certainly fly there so I can definitely see someone setting up (SQ themselves or maybe United if they want different timing).

 

[jase05]

Surely QF will setup an international J lounge minimum at WSI. So OW would be sorted for MH, CX, QR, FJ, AA. As for Star A, i can see WSI being the hub in the long run for AI and NZ would also certainly fly there so I can definitely see someone setting up (SQ themselves or maybe United if they want different timing).

Of course there will be lounges. The naysayers talk like it’s a tin shed being built out there. It’s going to be a start of the art airport with superb facilities and innovations that will put every other airport in Australia to shame. Will it eventually overtake SYD who knows but I’d love to be around in 40 years to see

 

[justinbrett]

Surely QF will setup an international J lounge minimum at WSI. So OW would be sorted for MH, CX, QR, FJ, AA. As for Star A, i can see WSI being the hub in the long run for AI and NZ would also certainly fly there so I can definitely see someone setting up (SQ themselves or maybe United if they want different timing).

Why would QF build an international J lounge in an airport it’s not flying international routes from? It doesn’t even have one at ADL or DRW.

Of course there will be lounges. The naysayers talk like it’s a tin shed being built out there. It’s going to be a start of the art airport with superb facilities and innovations that will put every other airport in Australia to shame. Will it eventually overtake SYD who knows but I’d love to be around in 40 years to see

Sure, once the full plan is implemented. But that will take 40 years.

I think domestic will do well similar to CBR/NTL and even AVV, but I can only see international as a cost cutting endeavour. Just like AVV.

 

[elanshin]

Why would QF build an international J lounge in an airport it’s not flying international routes from? It doesn’t even have one at ADL or DRW.


Sure, once the full plan is implemented. But that will take 40 years.

I think domestic will do well similar to CBR/NTL and even AVV, but I can only see international as a cost cutting endeavour. Just like AVV.

Because as sad as the reality is, Sydney (and maybe a small population that knows Melbourne) is "Australia" to the rest of the world. So the marketing to fly to "Sydney" even if its WSI will far surpass anything regional.

Also I could see QF shift flights like SYD - BLR over to WSI to better suit the customer base. Expansion into India should surely be on QFs radar and OWs.

Have to also remember that WSI is a lot more convenient for actually quite a lot of people in western Sydney than SYD is.

 

[RooFlyer]

but I can only see international as a cost cutting endeavour.

When has Qantas not been attracted to cost-cutting?

Why would QF build an international J lounge in an airport it’s not flying international routes from? It doesn’t even have one at ADL or DRW.

Yes, but they are unimportant. Sydney is the center of Qantas' universe.

 

[Himeno]

Actually i wouldn't be surprised to see MH, CX and maybe even SQ go very very quickly after launch or even at launch. Pull one or add one to their Sydney offering because now WSI opens up for late night Sydney departure (00:00 > 02:00) which connects very nicely into their morning operations. MH and CX both already have super late night out of MEL.

A 00:00 departure for SQ would arrive into Changi around 06:00 local time.

I wonder if airlines will also divert to WSI from SYD on super late arrivals that are past curfew now.

It might also depend on if they count WSI as part of "Sydney" under air service agreement limits. AVV is counted as part of Melbourne for some agreements and not others.
If WSI isn't considered to be part of "Sydney" for air service agreements, a number of airlines might start flying there when their major port limit is reached as it would then be considered "regional" and thus unlimited capacity.