Western Sydney Airport (WSI) Discussion

[33kft]

is relatively small (part of just 1 LGA within Greater Melbourne, the City of Wyndham, <200K people + Geelong's 250K ,

I think that number is a little low for Wyndham. A quick search gives me a population of 310K in 2022 and being the last of the Bayside growth corridors there is no shortage of development. Expected to be 500K+ in 15 years, and I think that is conservative.

That said, AVV is both hardly metro or utilised, and none of this is intended to attribute foresight to anything AVV related.

 

[dajop]

I think that number is a little low for Wyndham. A quick search gives me a population of 310K in 2022 an

I was reducing the population by about 20% to account for the fact that there's still even a chunk (probably 1/3 of the council area) that is closer to MEL than AVV. But Geelong and surrounding shires cover about 350K as well.

 

[Quickstatus]

but the catchment area for WSI dont generally have the disposable income for premium cost carriers

Disagree. There is a lot of $$$ and disposable income west of "inner Sydney"

Not once they factor in the cost of the Taxi/Uber (which could easily come to $200 vs $30 to SYD)

No may cost more in taxi/Uber to SYD.
For the return cost of taxi/rideshare I can park for 5 weeks at SYD T1.

 

[Lynda2475]

No may cost more in taxi/Uber to SYD.
For the return cost of taxi/rideshare I can park for 5 weeks at SYD T1.

Well i didnt mention self drive to some nearby long term parking where you then have to schlep your bags to the terminal or transfer to a bus.

I was talking taxi/uber door to door which is what most business travellers do and then ask their boss to reimburse.

So i stand by my comments it is much cheaper to get a uber/raxi to an airport within 20mins of home than one 90mins or more in traffic away.

I hope never to have to use WSI $200 uber each way is unpalatable to me.

 

[Quickstatus]

nearby long term parking

Syd T1 - schlep a short distance and no need to transfer to/from bus
Also on return - Schlep a short distance and no need to queue up for Uber/taxi

Dom parking: still have to schlep to Uber and taxi and the queues...

20min? Insular comes to mind.....

I hope never to have to use WSI $200 uber each way is unpalatable to me.

In the same way SYD $200 uber/taxi each way is unpalatable to me...

 

[Lynda2475]

20min? Insular comes to mind.....

No that is my reality, my current commute to airport is 20 mins surface roads (unless there is a major issue) or less if take the new tunnel from Haberfield - price is the same as no tolls on surface, toll if take the tunnel.

RooFlyer implied employers might push staff to fly out of WSI if flights are cheaper. However, I countered that if the WSI airfare + Uber/Taxi is going to be significantly more than SYD airfare + Uber/Taxi - then employers will not preference WSI.

I have had to comply with many different employer travel policies over the decades, I can state with authority that there is going to be no issue flying on an airfare that is say $50 more if it saves them $170 difference in the Uber/taxi fare and also means the employee is willing to fly earlier.

You obviously live closer to WSI and are happy to go there, good for you. It's a helluva long Uber/Taxi for me so I will avoid at all costs.

If for example all flights to international places I travel to were moved to WSI, I think Id rather connect via another city and take the extra SCs if it means the first flight could still be out of SYD.

And unless employer was willing to fund door to door uber/taxi to WSI for domestic travel and not expect me to absorb the extra 70 minutes each way out of my own time - then I would decline to fly domestically from there.

As someone who did 6am SYD-MEL more times than I care to remember, it is bad enough leaving home at 4:45am, I'm certainly not going to leave home at 3:35am to get to WSI for a 6am departure.

I worked hard so I could live where i do as it is convenient to everywhere I choose to go/work and that includes SYD.

I have lived in the south western suburbs and I would never do so again and definitely not further west to anywhere near WSI where it is essential to have a car. Sure I could have bought a McMansion out west for less than cost of my inner Sydney apartment, but i value time, proximity to venues, friends and family and SYD far more.

WSI is obviously going to suit you, but it is going to be a significantly longer commute therefore more expensive in an Uber/Taxi (or even driving with all the extra tolls) for anyone who lives in the City, Eastern Suburbs, Inner West, Inner South, Lower North Shore, Northern Beaches and that is a huge chunk of greater Sydney.

 

[Quickstatus]

but it is going to be a significantly longer commute therefore more expensive in an Uber/Taxi (or even driving with all the extra tolls) for anyone who lives in the City, Eastern Suburbs, Inner West, Inner South, Lower North Shore, Northern Beaches and that is a huge chunk of greater Sydney.

Well, I would suggest that the Centre of population of Sydney is currently about Lidcombe/Ermington than the places you suggest.
Massive land developments are occuring SW Sydney - Gregory Hills for example. I was astounded by the amount of development there.
Inner Sydney populations- encompassing the areas you mentioned, are currently boosted by cheap apartment living by the younger generation and I would not say that it is a richer population than out west. Increasingly young professionals with disposable income are moving out of the city to north, west and SW and commuting for work. An airport such as WSI moves the economic centre west and SW. For many people WSI will be cheaper to get to but i think cost of travel to airport is but one of the factors determining attractiveness of an airport. Sydney is curtailed by available land and curfew. Increasingly WSI will be the area of growth.

 

[Lynda2475]

Inner Sydney populations- encompassing the areas you mentioned, are currently boosted by cheap apartment living by the younger generation and I would not say that it is a richer population than out west.

If you think living in an apartment in inner Sydney is cheap your are very much mistaken, a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment rents in Mosman or CBD and even Leichaardt are easily more than a 3 or 4 bedroom house out west. Just look at real estate prices, you have to be a professional and have great income to afford anything with a glimpse of the harbour (or a beach).

And as for many being younger closer into the city I also disagree - sure there are pockets heavy with student accommodation (i.e. near UNSW and USyd/UTS) but the areas I noted (City, Inner West, Lower North Shore, Northern Beaches, Eastern Suburbs and Inner South) are full of families, professional and retirees. When even an entry level apartment costs over $1m and a free-standing house starts at $2m the street isnt dominated by first time homebuyers or young'uns.

The census clearly shows that median incomes in lower north shore, northern beaches, inner west are higher than Penrith or Liverpool or Campbeltown.

There are some wealthy people in the west but average punter there is likely to have lower income than average punter living anywhere near the harbour.

Nothing you have said changes the fact WSI is inconvenient to millions who will continue to preference SYD.

 

[Quickstatus]

Just look at real estate prices, you have to be a professional and have great income to afford anything with a glimpse of the harbour (or a beach).

You should see inside these apartments. Multiply the number of bedrooms by sometimes more than 2 to et the number of occupants.

free-standing house starts at $2m the street isnt dominated by first time homebuyers or young'uns.

Why would they, they are paying $3M in Castle Hill, $1M in Gregory Hills for a brand new

WSI is inconvenient to millions who will continue to preference SYD.

An perhaps convenient to the other millions

 

[SYD]

An perhaps convenient to the other millions

You’re in violent agreement.

 

[Quickstatus]

You’re in violent agreement.

Split it down the middle.

 

[dajop]

s the fact WSI is inconvenient to millions who will continue to preference SYD.

Yep it is, but really so what? I think if SYD were moving to WSI it would be a huge problems. But WSI is just supplementing SYD so overall a net benefit to the community. Four groups
1) Those who are definitevely closer to WSI or need to travel to businesses that are, WSI provides a benefit
2) Those who aren't closer to WSI, but have big families and are happy to drive and park at WSI, to take advantage of cheaper fares - net benefit
3) Business relying on airfreight - net benefit.
4) Everyone else - nothing changes. No net direct benefit. Although indirectly could benefit from some pressure on SYD and some individuals perhaps from alternatively timed International services.

Not sure what the problem is. If WSI is not for you, it's not for you. But that doesn't mean it's not for many others.

 

[Quickstatus]

Four groups

5 groups
5) Those whose superfunds (like mine) that have a stake in SYD who might see a reduction in benefit due to movement of business to WSI

 

[moa999]

They say these outrageous claims in order get more government handouts.

It's a fully Federal government owned airport.
(Sydney airport had an option and declined).

Undoubtedly a future Fed Govt will probably sell WSI but thats probably 10+ years in the future when it has grown into the initial development.

 

[RooFlyer]

As shown in today's Oz on-line



Also here: https://www.wsiflightpaths.gov.au/

 

[Lynda2475]

Also covered in SMH Flight paths for Sydney’s new airport reveal the suburbs facing highest noise levels



Not really sure why some of the diagrams in the previous post post show impact to Sydney proper during the day; doubtful any approach to WSI would start over SYD they are no where near each other. SMH seems to indicate all impact is well west of the city.

Plus also for free at ABC : Flight paths revealed for new multi-billion-dollar Sydney airport

 

[RooFlyer]

Not really sure why some of the diagrams in the previous post post show impact to Sydney proper during the day; doubtful any approach to WSI would start over SYD they are no where near each other. SMH seems to indicate all impact is well west of the city.

Flight paths Vs noise contours at ground level at various dB. And yes, those ARE the main proposed flight paths, starting/passing over Sydney etc - I guess where they've been put is a function of required aircraft sink rate, other traffic from SYD, Blacktown, Camden, also military and population centres. @AviatorInsight or @jb747 - any observations on their usability/ease of use from a pilot's point of view?

The SMH showed just one of the 4 or more combinations of noise distribution depending on runway direction used, coughulative or one-off events, and night or day operation and of course the contours change as the flight intensity increases over time, and the aircraft used changes (projected).

If people go to the 'Noise tool' at the wsiflightpaths link above, they'll find



Lots of different perms and coms. This for N60 using runway 05 in 2030



Runway 23 N70 in 2033




Either runway, overnight, 2033



Same, 2040

 

[Lynda2475]

But all the noise tools as show above show the noise contained to the very outer western burbs (really lower blue mountains/penrith) again not remotely near the city at all.

I remain unconvinced anyone living near SYD would be hearing any flight path noise for aircraft landing/departing from WSI - simply too far away.

 

[RooFlyer]

I remain unconvinced anyone living near SYD would be hearing any flight path noise for aircraft landing/departing from WSI - simply too far away.

Correct - the noise contour distributions show that. But flight paths and noise distributions are different illustrations for different things. If they just showed the flight paths where the noise reaches the surface, people would simply ask - OK, where will the planes fly after that? What are you (air authorities) hiding?

And I guess the tool they have provided provide information for all interested parties - not just residents worried about noise.

They are making a rod for their own back because the more information you put out, the more people will pick it apart, not understanding it, but I guess they know they are in for a hiding from the NIMBYs anyway, so may as well get it out there.

As an aside, here are flight paths for SYD shown under different conditions from here. The spread of paths shown is about the same as for WSI above.

 

[Quickstatus]

I'm interested in the runway alignment and its position relative to the usual wind patterns.

Also To what extent does wind play a part in sound propagation