SkyTeam and Delta/Virgin Atlantic DISASTER!!!!

[hmmm]

Hey there,

After freeing myself from the golden handcuffs, I have been exploring many new airlines and alliances. some good, some not so good.

SkyTeam has been a particular sore point, from late departing Korean Air flights causing missed connections and a distinct lack of any rebooking assistance, to retaining and then losing luggage.

But by far the icing on the cake is the latest shamozzle from Expedia (I know!) and Delta and Virgin Atlantic.

Keen to try out Deltas trans pacific offering, I booked a flight to LAX and onwards to CDG, returning the same way. For whatever unexplained reason, Expedia decided, in their wisdom, to ticket these 4 Delta flights as VS codeshares on VS ticket stock. Delta then decided to cancel its non stops between LAX and CDG and tried routing me through Salt Lake City and returning via Minneapolis, both of which I REFUSED to accept. Air France operates 3 daily non stops between LAX and CDG, but VS refused to allow it saying it had to be DL or VS despite Delta codesharing on the AF flights. Somewhat confusingly, despite having this AF restriction, VS was quite happy to route me trhough London on their own aircraft and then onwards to Paris onboard........... that's right. Air France.

Long story short..... 9 days before travel, iv'e had to cancel the entire reservation and pay more than DOUBLE to replace the itinerary on AA and BA and will seek to recover the fare difference from Expedia and the offending airlines.

I am genuinely shocked at their contempt for Australian consumers and Australian Consumer Law.

Needless to say, ive completely given up on SkyTeam as they're completely useless.

Singapore Airlines, however, has been BRILLIANT and im annoyed I didn't fly them sooner. they put Qantas to absolute shame!

 

[Scarlett]

Seems like it would’ve been easier to just take the connections through SLC and MSP??? Why fly direct when you can connect?

 

[hmmm]

Because it’s not what I wanted or booked and there were non stop options available on partner airline AIir France that they refused to put me on.

Also, I’m flying into LAX the day before from Madrid via Frankfurt on the 747-8 on Lufthansa and didnt fancy having 16 hours in LA before turning around and going back to Paris via SLC 8 hours earlier than planned and arriving 4 hours later than planned. I did however manage to change the return leg to go via Boston instead which I was relatively happy with but the outbound flight just didn’t work for my schedule.

I’m genuinely shocked at their attitude and lack of customer service in circumstances that THEY created.

 

[mannej]

I am a bit confused, not having used Expedia to book flights. Aren’t they like any other OTA who present options, and you chose the codeshare? What are the fare rules?

 

[hmmm]

This is the thing, they cant quote the fare rules other than ‘virgin Atlantic says no’.

When I contact virgin directly, this is their written response:

“Thank you for your further email. I trust you are keeping well.

I’m truly sorry for the schedule change that has taken place with your upcoming flight from Los Angeles to Paris.

As you know, this booking was made through a third party travel agent that sold you a ticket to travel on our partners Delta Air Lines using the codeshare flight numbers and on 932 Virgin Atlantic ticket stock. This is quite common for travel agents to do as they can get their customers the best price for flights using codeshare agreements.

However, while your travel agent made your reservation using Virgin Atlantic as the marketing carrier, there are certain things, under legislation, that we can't resolve when you are scheduled to fly with another carrier.

In the event of any schedule changes or cancellations that are enacted on your itinerary, it would always be the responsibility of the operating carrier to resolve with you, regardless of who the marketing carrier is. As such, when Delta Air Lines cancelled their direct service between Los Angles and Paris, it would be their responsibility to reprotect you onto another service.

Although the ticket that was purchased was done so by your travel agent using Virgin ticket stock, control of this booking is with Delta Air Lines and your travel agent. From the inception of this booking to the present day, Virgin Atlantic have not been involved in any of the booking or rebooking process of this itinerary.

I can see from your booking that Delta Customer Services have rebooked you to travel on an indirect flight, transiting via London with Virgin Atlantic. If you wish to travel on the direct service with Air France, this change would have to be made directly with either the operating carrier that made this change, Delta Air Lines, or your travel agent.

I realise that this may not be the answer you were hoping for today and apologise I am unable to give a more favourable response.

Thank you again for your email.

Kind regards
Chris Knox 
Customer Care
Virgin Atlantic
www.virginatlantic.com”

Now as you might appreciate, delta has a very different take on this matter as does Expedia. Expedia very firmly blames virgin Atlantic saying it’s their ticket, it’s their fare rules and they say no.

So I was merely a pawn between three parties all pointing their fingers at each other and the matter wasn’t able to be resolved.

A complete and utter $hitshow

 

[jase05]

Sounds like this is Expedia’s mess to clean up and why I only ever book direct with the airlines.
Sounds like a horrible experience but I’ve booked and flown with SkyTeam airlines many times and without any real issues and have generally found Virgin Atlantic good to deal with and their call centres quite knowledgeable and happy to assist

 

[hmmm]

Sounds like this is Expedia’s mess to clean up and why I only ever book direct with the airlines.
Sounds like a horrible experience but I’ve booked and flown with SkyTeam airlines many times and without any real issues and have generally found Virgin Atlantic good to deal with and their call centres quite knowledgeable and happy to assist

I’m as confused as the next guy.

I tend to agree that it is Expedias mess and whilst they ‘control’ the ticket and need to handle any changes, I also tend to think the ticket ‘belongs’ to Virgin Atlantic and it’s their fare rules that Expedia need to apply.

Virgin is blaming Delta saying they cancelled the flight (which they did). Delta and Expedia are saying, it’s a virgin Atlantic ticket and therefore it’s their issue and no one was willing to budge.

I simply refute the suggestion that the airlines can unilaterally change a contract and give you something entirely different to what you booked and paid for, unless by agreement. In this instance, I was flexible with the return flight and accommodated the requested change, but I was not willing to do it on the outbound sector for reasons already explained, especially when there was a valid alternative, available on their partner airline.

At the end of the day, I think that Expedia can only do as much as virgin Atlantic allow them to do and this is where the issue is.

But I’ll let a magistrate decide who is at fault as I’m done arguing with them directly

 

[Mattg]

I think one of the lessons here is not to book with Expedia.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I’m not sure VS is in the right here. Despite being a code share I thought a recent EU ruling meant that these were covered by EU261. The only potential complication being that the code share ruling was European, and not binding on the UK.

It seems VS should be on the hook to assist. ore. However, as far as service recovery goes, if the airline has cancelled its non-stop, what other options are there other than a re-route?

 

[hmmm]

I’m not sure VS is in the right here. Despite being a code share I thought a recent EU ruling meant that these were covered by EU261. The only potential complication being that the code share ruling was European, and not binding on the UK.

It seems VS should be on the hook to assist. ore. However, as far as service recovery goes, if the airline has cancelled its non-stop, what other options are there other than a re-route?

The other options are rebooking on any other airline in the same cabin on the same route. What makes this situation particularly galling for me is that the only other airline offering non stop service between LAX and CDG is both Delta and Virgin Atlantics SkyTeam partner, Air France, with 3 daily non stops so for me, this was was the ideal and most appropriate solution.

I can totally understand and accept they would refuse to put me on say, United or BA via a one stop flight when both delta and virgin also operate one stop flights. There would be no reason for them to move me to another airline for a flight or routing that is not materially different to what they could offer. But given that neither of them operate non stops, and there is an airline that does, then that should be the primary solution. Especially when it’s a partner airline and delta codeshare on the AF Flight.

I just can’t make it make sense!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The other options are rebooking on any other airline in the same cabin on the same route. What makes this situation particularly galling for me is that the only other airline offering non stop service between LAX and CDG is both Delta and Virgin Atlantics SkyTeam partner, Air France, with 3 daily non stops so for me, this was was the ideal and most appropriate solution.

I can totally understand and accept they would refuse to put me on say, United or BA via a one stop flight when both delta and virgin also operate one stop flights. There would be no reason for them to move me to another airline for a flight or routing that is not materially different to what they could offer. But given that neither of them operate non stops, and there is an airline that does, then that should be the primary solution. Especially when it’s a partner airline and delta codeshare on the AF Flight.

I just can’t make it make sense!

That’s up to the travel agent (expedia) to have to work through within the rules of the ticket. Delta cancelling their flight and offering the one stop should be the opening position. A bricks-and-mortar agency may have been able to work more for you, but some OTAs are really just clearing houses sometimes.

It might be that it was a DL/VS fare only?

 

[gaz0303]

I settled to just be happy if scaryteam got me to my destination alive. Not working in SE Asia anymore I can avoid them.

And don’t get your hopes up too much about LH 747-8. Always a dream to fly upstairs on a 747, but the best bit is the view of the airplane from the fantastic LH lounge in FRA.

 

[hmmm]

I understand that when there is an airline initiated schedule change, fare rules are effectively invalid for the affected sectors. I know they don’t have to rebook you in the same fare class, etc,

I also suspect it might very well have been a vs/dl only ticket, but dl codeshare on the flight in question which, for all intents and purposes, makes it a do flight. But notwithstanding that, given its involuntary, they need to disregard the rules, especially when there is no valid alternative on vs or dl.

 

[hmmm]

I settled to just be happy if scaryteam got me to my destination alive. Not working in SE Asia anymore I can avoid them.

And don’t get your hopes up too much about LH 747-8. Always a dream to fly upstairs on a 747, but the best bit is the view of the airplane from the fantastic LH lounge in FRA.

SkyTeam really is a questionable alliance in that it doesn’t have any sort of guaranteed alliance wide benefits. It all seems like it’s all down to agreements between specific airlines.

I was excited to try Delta but I’m perfectly ok with not. If it was this bad before travel, I can’t imagine how bad it could be during.

 

[jase05]

SkyTeam really is a questionable alliance in that it doesn’t have any sort of guaranteed alliance wide benefits. It all seems like it’s all down to agreements between specific airlines.

Is that much different to the other alliances?
FWIW I haven’t travelled with all ST airlines but have flown a lot with them over the years and have found them to be a pretty decent alliance with all or most benefits applied equally. Their huge downside is no lounge for domestic flights and new members not integrated into the system fast enough but outside of that I reckon SkyPriority is the best at getting my bags out first and being looked after by staff.
Maybe we have been lucky with the airlines we have flown

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I understand that when there is an airline initiated schedule change, fare rules are effectively invalid for the affected sectors. I know they don’t have to rebook you in the same fare class, etc,

I also suspect it might very well have been a vs/dl only ticket, but dl codeshare on the flight in question which, for all intents and purposes, makes it a do flight. But notwithstanding that, given its involuntary, they need to disregard the rules, especially when there is no valid alternative on vs or dl.

I’m not sure that’s the correct interpretation.

Flight changes on the day of travel… yes… fare rules pretty much go out the window and airlines have agreements between them to change/rearrange/re-route. I’ve had a united ticket where they offered to re-route me on BA and AA from Chicago to London. But that was a delay caused by weather on the day.

But for schedule changes in advance, the same doesn’t necessarily apply. If Qantas for example cancels a flight well in advance you aren’t automatically entitled to fly cathay, or japan airlines. You are governed by the contract of carriage. If QF cancels SYD-SFO you don’t automatically get united, you are more likely to get QF to LAX followed by AA or AS to SFO.

If you look at DL’s conditions of carriage for schedule changes or cancellations it will likely be something like a re-route, or refund?

 

[odysseus]

Backing up the above, here are the conditions from Qantas on codeshare procedures, which would be network wide (not just applying to Qantas):

Travel on other airlines​

4.4.1 Codeshares​

(a) We have arrangements with other Carriers known as 'Codeshares'. This means that even if you have made a booking with us and hold a Ticket for a flight with a QF Airline Designator Code, you may travel on an aircraft operated by another Carrier.
(b) If such arrangements apply to your flight, we will advise you of the Carrier operating the aircraft at the time you make a booking.
(c) The conditions of carriage of the operating Carrier will apply to all operational and procedural aspects of the flight such as, baggage acceptance, check-in and boarding, refusal and limitation of carriage, conduct aboard aircraft, and schedules, delays and cancellation of flights, and these may differ from these Conditions of Carriage. You should check the operating Carrier’s requirements for:
(i) re-confirmation and check-in;
(ii) the types of baggage that will be accepted;
(iii) the cost of additional Baggage Allowance;
(iv) the purchase of additional Baggage Allowance only at the airport of departure for that flight and not in advance;
(v) schedule changes, delays and cancellations; and

So as above, best to check out what Delta's conditions are, as they're the ones that apply, not VS.

 

[Supersonic Swinger]

I think one of the lessons here is not to book with Expedia.

I second this. I've had major pains with Expedia tickets booked on Star (Turkish / Lufthansa) and Oneworld (Qantas / LATAM when they were still in OW).

I now avoid online travel agents, I don't trust their fares. If i'm booking with a travel agent, I'll book with a Flight Centre or a corporate travel agent. When things go south, I can speak to someone to sort it out for me.

 

[Seat0B]

I simply refute the suggestion that the airlines can unilaterally change a contract and give you something entirely different to what you booked and paid for, unless by agreement.

The old Qantas “bundle of rights” approach !!!!

 

[hmmm]

Is that much different to the other alliances?

OneWorld elites get a guaranteed set of benefits Iike extra luggage, priority luggage, lounge access, seat selection or preferred seat selection etc.

Skyteam airlines seem to treat hight tier members of their own FF programs preferentially to those from other airlines. I had Skypriority listed against my booking but there was no clarity around what that actually means or includes. There are numerous stories of people being rejected from the VS Clubhouse in London and handballed to a priority pass lounge etc.

If you look at DL’s conditions of carriage for schedule changes or cancellations it will likely be something like a re-route, or refund?

From Deltas website: "We will rebook you on the next available flight on Delta at no additional cost. If a Delta flight is unavailable, we will arrange an alternative flight operated by another airline with which we have a ticketing agreement at no additional cost"