Renewable Energy Discussion

[Cruiser Elite]

All matters regarding renewable energy

 

[33kft]

just when all developed countries are desperately fending off energy starvation.

Sorry but this is just one of the ridiculous points amongst a large pool of them in your post

If anything, we have an overabundance of energy. Rooftop solar installations take the wholesale energy rate negative in the middle of the day every day. That's why my provider gives me free electricity from 11am-2pm every day. Because it costs money to export it and encouraging use benefits everyone.

Of course the problem is that this isn't peak demand time and you need some sort of energy sink to store that energy for when it is needed. Something like a..... battery, I guess. Not only can owners charge at home, with EV chargers popping up in carparks all over the place, owners can plug in and go about their day and charge off the sun.

The lunacy is continuing to import an actual dwindling energy resource from the middle east which is constantly increasing in cost due to demand and lack of (cartel) supply instead of getting rooftop solar into EVs for free to be driven at the owners convenience. Even if only 25% of EV owners could take advantage of solar generation through the day, that's still 25% more than the number of petroleum car owners able to generate fuel from the sun at home isn't it.

The rest of the points above are equally spurious but that one just stood out as being totally illogical.

 

[jb747]

If anything, we have an overabundance of energy. Rooftop solar installations take the wholesale energy rate negative in the middle of the day every day. That's why my provider gives me free electricity from 11am-2pm every day. Because it costs money to export it and encouraging use benefits everyone.

My provider is making noises about charging for exports. So, I've just had a chat to my installer, about ensuring that I export nothing. Apparently simple to do and automate. So, if charging for exports actually becomes a thing, then I wouldn't be surprised if that midday excess suddenly disappears entirely.

 

[33kft]

My provider is making noises about charging for exports. So, I've just had a chat to my installer, about ensuring that I export nothing. Apparently simple to do and automate.

What it needs is more utilisation. The more people who are using that power, the less of an issue the voltage rise at the neighbourhood level causes and the less that the distributors will care.

The utilisation is coming - electric hot water systems, home battery systems and virtual power plants are intelligently using that export to get next to free power, and EVs and associated power plans like mine which are aimed at EV owners encourage charging midday to further utilise the solar generation.

Our problem is literally too much power, but with every issue comes a solution and the solution means free power for those who invest in something - electric hot water, home batteries or EVs which contribute to the solution to free up capacity to allow more people to export their solar power.

It's easy to be pessimistic about the supply side but I'm happy as a consumer. I built a 13kWh battery setup for about $7k in my shed which runs a bunch of loads like a wine fridge and some computer stuff, plus I charge my EV and do washing and drying etc midday, just the shed battery alone gives me $113 of free energy per month (13kW @ my peak rate of 29c/kWh) or $1,350 annually for free, plus my EV charges for free too. I love the current solar supply crunch and will do my part to keep on sucking up free energy in the middle of the day so more people can export their cheap energy to me.

 

[33kft]

What the really smart people are working on right now is energy arbitrage. When your provider wants you to pay it's because the market rate is negative when supply is high. Later on in the day supply is low and the export rate jumps up. People are building energy storage to be paid to suck up excess export midday, store it for a few hours, and export it back to the grid in the evening at high export rates.

There's all sorts of storage technologies under development like thermal energy storage. Solid state molten sand/salt/silicon batteries, or even just water or recycled oil thermal energy storage, all kinds of clever stuff.

 

[drron]

But why when we are producing excess energy and renewables are so cheap does SA with the most renewable energy have the highest electricity prices.

 

[tgh]

We continue to sell our daylight output for more than we pay for our peak demand so no battery here and no power bill….
We belong to a slowly shrinking group of early adopters who were offered a very generous and open ended feed in tariff.
We have only 5kva but folks right at the start who had the money to invest put up 50 kva or more in panels continue make a nice income at the expense of everyday consumers… good one alp...

 

[33kft]

But why when we are producing excess energy and renewables are so cheap does SA with the most renewable energy have the highest electricity prices.

They don't have the highest penetration of renewables for starters, TAS do by a long way:

Renewable energy by state Australia 2022 | Statista

Queensland, Australia had the lowest share of energy usage from renewable sources in 2022. The state with the highest penetration rate was Tasmania.

www.statista.com

So let's test that theory. Retail power prices by state:

Average Electricity Prices in Australia per kWh – Canstar Blue

Canstar Blue has calculated and compared the average kWh price of electricity in NSW, QLD, VIC and SA. How does you plan stack up?

www.canstarblue.com.au

TAS are almost the lowest, coming in just after the ACT, which wasn't in that list above (because it's per state) but has 100% renewable penetration vs TAS's 99%:

Here's how the ACT has 100 per cent renewable power from today

Canberra hasn't become an off-the-grid island in the middle of New South Wales. So why is the ACT Government now calling the capital 100 per cent renewable?

www.abc.net.au

The two lowest cost power regions are the two with the highest penetration of renewable energy.

 

[drron]

But hydro electricity is not what you were talking about and the 2 examples you have given are the smallest state where increasing hydro would now be impossible and the Territory with the smallest area.
So my point still stands.
And just in case you want to argue through your rose coloured glasses why does the highest price for electricity occur in the countries and states with the highest renewables - solar and wind- in Europe, the USA and Canada. The lowest prices in those are those with supposedly the dearest power source in nuclear.

 

[33kft]

And just in case you want to argue through your rose coloured glasses

There's not even an argument, there's data or there's feelings. I am only interested in what the data shows, I can get all the feelings I want by watching sky news.

 

[drron]

Then you don’t have the true data.
My past includes working as a nuclear physician.
Most of the arguments against nuclear power are based on feelings not facts.

 

[33kft]

Most of the arguments against nuclear power are based on feelings not facts.

That we both agree on. The fact you see it as a binary choice is your fallacy and not mine. I'm all for all efficient and clean energy production options and always have been.

The fact that you are perpetuating the exact thing you are complaining about (misinformation) around renewables after seeing how badly misinformation around nuclear power has set Australia back globally in terms of energy production is the irony. I will never understand how human nature leads people to prefer to burn brown coal in VIC for power rather than embrace other generation options given the terrible environmental effects from burning brown coal but hey, here we are.

 

[Forg]

I have wind!

OK, my take is … it’s going to be expensive & probably not “economically viable”, so while Making Money rules uber alles it’s going to be super-super slow implementing renewable energy sauces …

… but …

… Straya is in a pretty reasonable position, on a global basis. All sorts of dirt that’s good for making batteries & cables, plenty of solars to turn into electrickery, and a lot of areas with a constantly reliable amount of airflow for wind generation. Surrounded by all sorts of big oceans which throw HEAPS of wave energy at the place. I reckon if someone has the political balls to jump on that bandwagon ASAP, the country’s in a good place to capitalise on the end of the world, as other countries desperately try to find a way to survive the disasters that’re going to be getting worse & worse.

 

[drron]

That we both agree on. The fact you see it as a binary choice is your fallacy and not mine. I'm all for all efficient and clean energy production options and always have been.

The fact that you are perpetuating the exact thing you are complaining about (misinformation) around renewables after seeing how badly misinformation around nuclear power has set Australia back globally in terms of energy production is the irony. I will never understand how human nature leads people to prefer to burn brown coal in VIC for power rather than embrace other generation options given the terrible environmental effects from burning brown coal but hey, here we are.

What misinformation about renewables. The cost issue is easy to follow and I have used reputable sources.

 

[Scr77]

Then you don’t have the true data.
My past includes working as a nuclear physician.
Most of the arguments against nuclear power are based on feelings not facts.

With respect, I'll entertain nuclear energy when we can fix potholes on our major freeways.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Anyone who thinks nuclear power is any solution for Australia is seriously deluded. Not cost effective, modular nuclear power has never been proven to work and whatever would take 25 years to come online at great waste of money. The current federal opposition are promoting fantasyland just to oppose renewables. Twiggies et al plan for solar farm in NT to power Singapore is the way to go to make Australia an energy superpower. Nuclear power for Australia is as rediculous as the ludicrous CCS money holes used to prop up non tax paying fossil fuel companies.

 

[tgh]

I suspect nuclear power will become attractive as the fragility of current renewables is demonstrated.
Coal remains king and will so remain for many decades.
Of course all the brouhaha about anthropogenic global warming completely ignores history; we have been smashed before and will so be again.. when is moot.

 

[Quickstatus]

Something like a..... battery, I guess

Or I just turn off exports. If there is an overabundance ofenergy, I guess no one will miss lots of residential solar farms turning off export.
The battery remains non financially viable.

I export circa 20,000kWh per year.
Gimme a non DIY off the shelf 100kWh battery 3 phase and warrantable kWh of at least 400MWh for a price of 10c/warrantable kWh (=$40k) and we can talk. Until then.....

TAS are almost the lowest

Aaaannnnd tell me how TAS can increase its hydropower output?

 

[drron]

Anyone who thinks nuclear power is any solution for Australia is seriously deluded. Not cost effective, modular nuclear power has never been proven to work and whatever would take 25 years to come online at great waste of money. The current federal opposition are promoting fantasyland just to oppose renewables. Twiggies et al plan for solar farm in NT to power Singapore is the way to go to make Australia an energy superpower. Nuclear power for Australia is as rediculous as the ludicrous CCS money holes used to prop up non tax paying fossil fuel companies.

Except the original company building the solar farm in the NT to export to Singapore went into liquidation.
And Qatar has bought 4 1345 megawatt reactors from South Korea. The first 3 are in operation less than 10 years from construction start. The 4th began construction in 2015 and is currently in testing before becoming operational.
And all on budget.
Cost 20 billion for a plant that should last 90 years. And work at 90% efficiency.
Wind farms currently cost 1.3 million to build with at most 40% efficiency and 30 years before needing replacement.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Except the original company building the solar farm in the NT to export to Singapore went into liquidation.
And Qatar has bought 4 1345 megawatt reactors from South Korea. The first 3 are in operation less than 10 years from construction start. The 4th began construction in 2015 and is currently in testing before becoming operational.
And all on budget.
Cost 20 billion for a plant that should last 90 years. And work at 90% efficiency.
Wind farms currently cost 1.3 million to build with at most 40% efficiency and 30 years before needing replacement.

Doesn’t change my views or comments. Nuclear is just a silly idea for Australia.