Pax removed from QF838 MEL-DRW 02 Feb

[esseeeayeenn]

Says Mr QF Platinum (and Virgin Gold?).

Please feel free to share your wealth with those that cannot afford to fly.

This is becoming rather personal.


The first person pronoun which I used in the post you quoted was "us".
So I freely acknowledge my position of relative wealth and privilege.
I do contribute to charity but there is a limit to the impact that can have.
So I also work towards reforms with a view to realising greater equality of opportunity.
Not of outcomes - as there should always be incentives for personal endeavour.

Having said that, like many on here I fly a lot for work, and my frequent flyer status is not a direct indicator of my personal financial resources.

I don't intend to contribute more to this thread because the various views are all on the record and it risks becoming a slanging match.

 

[juddles]

This is becoming rather personal.


The first person pronoun which I used in the post you quoted was "us".
So I freely acknowledge my position of relative wealth and privilege.
I do contribute to charity but there is a limit to the impact that can have.
So I also work towards reforms with a view to realising greater equality of opportunity.
Not of outcomes - as there should always be incentives for personal endeavour.

Having said that, like many on here I fly a lot for work, and my frequent flyer status is not a direct indicator of my personal financial resources.

I don't intend to contribute more to this thread because the various views are all on the record and it risks becoming a slanging match.

You confuse me because you express some sort of rage against rich White people, but then you admit you are one of them, and are unable to make things equal? You ¨contribute to charity¨. I could flick a 5 cent piece towards the Red Cross and claim that too. My problem with you is that on the one hand you talk about huge problems of inequality, but on the other hand you appear to recognize that you cannot single-handedly make a difference. IMHO you have some beautiful ideal in your head which is totally NOT refelected in your reality. People like you do not help their ideals, they cause them ridicule.

<redacted>

 

[Quickstatus]

Wonderful to see so many speaking out for their right not to be inconvenienced by the suffering of others.

Interesting, the economic 'asylum seekers' are the ones prolonging the suffering of the genuine asylum seeker who languish in squalid refugee camps - an inconvenient truth. It is the queue jumpers who don't want to be inconvenienced - isn't that the universal reason queue jumpers jump queues? So they have a right not to be inconvenienced?. The morally superior usually seem to also be logically inferior...

Yet to see the "morally superior " fully support an asylum seeker on their own dime. As always everyone else has to pay for their "morally superior" ideas

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Just had a look at one's flight map. Certainly one's travel doesn't seem to have been too inconvenienced by the suffering of others!

I'm flattered by the interest you have taken in my travels.

You should follow me on instagram. The account is in the same name as I use on this site.

As I said this is becoming very personal. Which is fine as long as you actually know my personal circumstances.

Looks like one has flown right over ... oh! Sri Lanka ... to ... Dubai? Nice stop-off? Tsk. All those workers from the sup continent and Asia, in terrible conditions just to make one's stop-over and trip that much more enjoyable. The shopping isn't bad there, but I've seen better.

Obviously I had a great deal of influence in bringing about the QF EK partnership. The only reason I have ever been to the UAE was to transit through either DXB or AUH.

Lotsa flights to/through Hong Kong. Ever a thought about the proclivities and methods of the PLA? Great yum cha though.

I haven't been to HKG since it was handed back to China. When most flights to Europe went through either HKG or SIN. The People's Liberation Army weren't welcome in those days.

Egypt, Cairo and Luxor. Hmmm ... enough said. Hope one wasn't inconvenienced by the regime there. Certainly some journos have been; but the Valley of the Kings is fabulous; never mind.

Which regime? I was in Egypt in early 1985. I can't remember whether Sudat (?) bothered many journos.
Interestingly I did decline an invitation from the crew on board my Tunis Air flight from Tunis to Cairo to continue with them on to Tel Aviv free of charge for a holiday.
I do have some ethics about the countries I visit. Oh and as a callow youth I didn't trust the intentions of the CSM.

Gimme a break from hypocrisy, already.

Since you bothered to look at my flight map, which I have made completely accessible, you could, of course, have checked the dates of these trips for yourself.
But why bother with facts?

Interestingly you haven't mentioned any of the places which I do have reservations about having visited - Bali, Vanuatu and Fiji.
Although there are persuasive arguments for both the benefits and the drawbacks of tourism in those countries which I find difficult to reconcile.
Oh and possibly Qatar - I have transited DOH on QR but with what I now know about their foreign slave labourers I doubt I would do that again.

 

[straitman]

So you expect passengers to follow the rule of law, even when the government does not?
Deporting asylum seekers back to the country from which they fled is réfoulment, and contrary to international law.
Such determinations that Tamils are not refugees are based on the false assessment that Sri Lanka is now "safe"- despite continued human rights abuses.
Abuses which the Sri Lankan Govt has refused to allow the UN to investigate.
Abuses to which our Govt is turning a blind eye in return for Sri Lanka's cooperation to "stop the boats".
Regardless of the cost in human suffering.

The government is compromising aviation security by using commercial airlines to do their dirty work.
It is manifestly unsafe to carry a passenger who does not want to be onboard and has nothing left to lose.
Airlines should refuse to carry any passengers in such circumstances.
Put the blame where it belongs.

The first paragraph is totally irrelevant to the situation in question and my comments have nothing to do with the politics of the situation but all to do with aviation safety.

Re the second paragraph you have no knowledge of the procedures in place and/or the risk assessments carried out before said passenger is boarded. These are done by the authorities and also by the airlines before anyone is transported. Some people are appropriate to transport and others not but you assume/imply that everyone is just loaded onboard without any forethought.

As someone else mentioned if people are going to not follow the basic safety instructions then how can their be any confidence that they will be responsible in a more critical situation.

I must say that as a professional pilot I'm not sure I would ever want anybody on my aircraft who advocates the breaking of aviation regulations no matter what the reason.

 

[JohnK]

Wonderful to see so many speaking out for their right not to be inconvenienced by the suffering of others.

I think you are in the wrong forum.

And I am guessing you are no different those spruikers that hijack the footpaths to force you to listen to their sales pitch.

Just because you think a cause is important does not mean everyone has to fight for your cause. Stop being selfish.

 

[RooFlyer]

(With apologies to Hvr, the OP.)

<snip>

I haven't been to HKG since it was handed back to China. When most flights to Europe went through either HKG or SIN. The People's Liberation Army weren't welcome in those days.

Since you bothered to look at my flight map, which I have made completely accessible, you could, of course, have checked the dates of these trips for yourself.
But why bother with facts?

<snip>.

Actually, I did check the dates - your facts - myself. HKG 2014, 2013, 2012...... Hong Kong was returned to China in 1997. How about that?

<snip>

Which regime? I was in Egypt in early 1985. I can't remember whether Sudat (?) bothered many journos.
<snip>

Visited 2007 according to the data. Anwar Sadat was assassinated in 1981. In 1985 Egypt was ruled by one Hosni Mubarak; I think one would find he did 'bother' journos and many of his own people. One should check it out. "But why bother with facts?"

<snip>

Although there are persuasive arguments for both the benefits and the drawbacks of tourism in those countries which I find difficult to reconcile.
Oh and possibly Qatar - I have transited DOH on QR but with what I now know about their foreign slave labourers I doubt I would do that again.

But is it OK for Dubai? Should the morally upright still be happy to transit there? Does that indicate a bit of selectivity on which foreign slave labourers one stands in solidarity with? But it is a QF stop-over. If one flies QF there is an argument for not wishing to be inconvenienced by the suffering of others - fair enough too. A number of people actually did stop flying QF to Europe in protest against the practices in Dubai and UAE.

All in all and in general, such breathtaking hypocrisy and cant can be quite entertaining. Bottom line - people who express views as strongly as some have here, wagging a finger at those wicked others who hold such reprehensible views against the poor downtrodden (non) 'refugees' who invite themselves to Australia, and seem to hold themselves out as morally superior, may wish to thoroughly check their own circumstances before lecturing others; (and if needs be, check the dates they have posted on AFF Flight tracker before contradicting themselves)

 

[Danger]

I think this thread needs to be shutdown.

 

[straitman]

I think this thread needs to be shutdown.

[mod hat]There is no need to shut the thread though it is being watched closely.
In saying that I obviously need to remind a few people regarding the forum rules on personal attacks.
It's very simple, attack the topic and not any individual.[/mod hat off]

 

[esseeeayeenn]

The flight list below the map in the screenshot you have pasted is not a list of my flights.

This should be obvious at a glance: the map shows I have never flown to or through KUL.
I have never flown to YVR or LAX. In fact I have never set foot on either of the American continents.
This is also obvious from a glance at my flight map.
There are no MEL-HKG or SYD-HKG sectors on my flight map, and I have never flown those routes either.

I do not know whose flights are listed there but they are not mine.
Perhaps they are yours. You may need to click on "list flights" again to refresh.
Either that or try to view the flightmap as a guest (not logged in) so it doesn't default to listing your flights.


Obviously everything you have said based on those flights and those dates is simply wrong and requires no further comment.
I will assume that the error was inadvertent.

 

[RooFlyer]

Aircraft have always been attractive to various malcontents and peoples-with-a-grievance. However, rarely are the people who are the focus of those grievances directly affected by the on-aircraft 'action', which is, of course, just one of the issues (including the plain committing of a serious crime).

It was the '70s I think when hijackings became the 'look at me' du-jour (without wanting to trivialise the seriousness of those crimes). My earliest memory of a hijacking (showing it was successful in its purpose ) was the PLO / PFLP when they hi-jacked aircraft to various locations and on one occasion in 1970, 4 aircraft to the Jordanian desert . And that guy hanging out the coughpit window with the pilot, and a gun. After that things got worse.

We can only hope that the current lot of protesters in Australia, using Australian aircraft as their stage, don't gradually escalate when promulgating the 'nothing to lose' mind set.

 

[whatmeworry]

So people bought tickets to disrupt a flight?

Australia has accepted many refugees from Sudan, many who waited years in camps and didn't have the means to jump the queue.

 

[mannej]

It would be nice if EVERYONE obeyed the injunction against personal attacks.

Sorry but I do agree with the sentiment of the post from someone with professional experience in the industry.
Whilst it may come across as harsh, it is not an unreasonable view point.

 

[straitman]

Sorry but I do agree with the sentiment of the post from someone with professional experience in the industry.
Whilst it may come across as harsh, it is not an unreasonable view point.

I have edited my post to make it less personal though the intent is still that anyone who advocates the deliberate breaking of aviation rules is not welcome on any aircraft by any pilot.

 

[BAM1748]

I have edited my post to make it less personal though the intent is still that anyone who advocates the deliberate breaking of aviation rules is not welcome on any aircraft by any pilot.

Should anyone who advocates the deliberate breaking of any law not be welcome.

Matt

 

[esseeeayeenn]

So Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parkes, Nelson Mandela and Schindler are "not welcome on any aircraft by any pilot".

 

[drron]

So Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parkes, Nelson Mandela and Schindler are "not welcome on any aircraft by any pilot".

Totally irrelevant unless you can come up with some Aviation rules they broke.

 

[straitman]

So Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parkes, Nelson Mandela and Schindler are "not welcome on any aircraft by any pilot".

Totally irrelevant unless you can come up with some Aviation rules they broke.

esseeeayeenn,

Please correct me if I'm wrong but non of the mentioned persons advocated the breaking of aviation regulations.

 

[RooFlyer]

The flight list below the map in the screenshot you have pasted is not a list of my flights.

This should be obvious at a glance: the map shows I have never flown to or through KUL.
I have never flown to YVR or LAX. In fact I have never set foot on either of the American continents.
This is also obvious from a glance at my flight map.
There are no MEL-HKG or SYD-HKG sectors on my flight map, and I have never flown those routes either.

I do not know whose flights are listed there but they are not mine.
Perhaps they are yours. You may need to click on "list flights" again to refresh.
Either that or try to view the flightmap as a guest (not logged in) so it doesn't default to listing your flights.


Obviously everything you have said based on those flights and those dates is simply wrong and requires no further comment.
I will assume that the error was inadvertent.

O/T sorry, but just to correct your mis-understanding of how AFF Flight tracker works. (oops, another 'personal' post - but I'm trying to help understanding of AFF functionality )

I can bring up your flight map - you post it for all to see (as I do). I can also click on an airport on the map and it brings up the flights in/out of that port that are in the database. Try it.

I was trying to understand your own flying, as it was relevant to the (side) topic at hand - the 'convenience' of flyers Vs various regimes and their policies.

Clicking on Hong Kong on your map brought up the flights that I captured in the screen shot that I posted. This is the data in your profile, not mine. If it is incorrect, and you care, then you can fix it, no-one else. Admin may be able to give guidance.

Please don't blame me for using the data in your own AFF Flight Tracker profile; its your responsibility. I did notice the discrepancy with HKG and YVR; but I assumed the actual data was correct and the map was mis-plotting. The way these things work is that the map constructs off the data entered, not the other way round, so I think it was a reasonable assumption - no?

Obviously everything you have said based on those flights and those dates is simply wrong and requires no further comment.

OK, put those to one side (no further comment) - but with your your recently posted comments about actual dates, I'm still curious about flying into Egypt and doing the tourist thing during Hosni Mubarak's regime (Sadat was long dead) and flying through Dubai these days when apparently Qatar may be on the nose, even though the regimes and their treatment of foreign workers is next to identical. If you want to share, that is.

 

[medhead]

I keep having this image in my head of being told, "We must all be free thinkers. You MUST ALL agree with me or you are wrong!"

Accusing people of collaborating with naz_s because they refuse to believe what you believe in this matter is offensive, and I don't get offended often.

Trouble is, that's not what had been said at all. The analogy is to those who say "it's the law" we must follow it. The German naz_s made it the law to steal from and kill minorities. It's an extreme analogy but it illustrates the point that "it's the law" is a weak argument.

This comment applies to many in this thread not just you.

Now, I'm also sure there were a number of Germans who protested the law and were killed for it. I'd love to know if they were selfish people as well.

Before anyone goes accusing me of any sort of BS. Look inwards and answer the question posed re morality. Is "it's the law" a valid answer?