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New low in employee engagement at Qantas? Pilots being threatened over Project Sunrise pay deal...

juddles

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Continuing on, I had the chance to meet jb747 once. IIRC it was a MEL to DXB flight. Meeting him confirmed what I always thought - QF pilots are a breed apart. Since his retirement I can understand the pain on seeing what QF is trying to bring in - but I also see why they are doing it.
 

dajop

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I have so far more confidence in a QF pilot deciding that X is risky and thus it is not done, than in most cultures where staff just go along with the flow of management.
When you say "management" that applies both inside and outside the cockpit. One of the recognised factors in some of the aviation tragedies throughout Asia (and indeed in some other parts of the world) - particularly with KE and CI - was the inability of FO's to challenge their captains authority.
 

juddles

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When you say "management" that applies both inside and outside the cockpit. One of the recognised factors in some of the aviation tragedies throughout Asia (and indeed in some other parts of the world) - particularly with KE and CI - was the inability of FO's to challenge their captains authority.
Not sure what angle you are heading for with this post - but it is perhaps in line with my belief that a QF crew has lesser hierarchical constraints....
 

dajop

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Not sure what angle you are heading for with this post - but it is perhaps in line with my belief that a QF crew has lesser hierarchical constraints....
Essentially yes. Some societies are just more hierarchical (East Asian ones well known to be like this, but there are others too) and that can create challenges in the cockpit. Google “cockpit culture”. I’m just going on what I’ve read, but that could be flawed. Obviously those with extensive experience in the cockpit would be in a better position to articulate how this is a factor and what it really means.
 

N860CR

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Worth noting that these poor starving Chinese airline pilots that have been spoken of are paid up to 500k pa AFTER tax. Contracts come with risk.

We have an odd attitude in Australia. Shouldn’t we want wages to go up, not fight to bring people down.

A wide body captain is at the end of their long career. The high wage has a very defined end date for them and only lasts a short period. Not too different to most professionals after decades of experience.
 
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Many traddies have priced themselves out of the market & the same happens in all businesses & all occupations.
It appears you have a problem with anybody except those working in management roles getting paid well. Tradies probably work harder and in jobs that put their health at risk than most that frequent AFF.

On the subject of pilots and their pay I would say the similar. Do you recall what Alan Joyce was paid last year?

Now imagine yourself when you’ve flown long haul, say fro Europe to Australia. Most of us are not functioning close to 100% by the time we touch down. What happens if on approach to land there are a series of alarms going off in the cockpit? If I was on the plane I’d want my pilots well rested and functioning at close to 100%

It maybe true that safety and pay are unrelated but it is only Qantas management and their highly paid PR people that are making this simply a money issue.
 

ozfflyer

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It appears you have a problem with anybody except those working in management roles getting paid well. Tradies probably work harder and in jobs that put their health at risk than most that frequent AFF.

On the subject of pilots and their pay I would say the similar. Do you recall what Alan Joyce was paid last year?

Now imagine yourself when you’ve flown long haul, say fro Europe to Australia. Most of us are not functioning close to 100% by the time we touch down. What happens if on approach to land there are a series of alarms going off in the cockpit? If I was on the plane I’d want my pilots well rested and functioning at close to 100%

It maybe true that safety and pay are unrelated but it is only Qantas management and their highly paid PR people that are making this simply a money issue.
what Joyce earns is not relevant. Don't have a problem with tradies, but there are almost always 2 prices with what tradies charge & how do they get away with adding GST ? B to C transactions are meant to include GST. Only B to B transactions, can add GST after.

So with your argument, why not pay pilots more, a lot more ?

Because like any market, there's supply & demand. Massive glut of pilots now, which is not going away anytime soon & Joyce knows it & will call the unions bluff.

Have a read below. Don't think there's a paywall.

 
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what Joyce earns is not relevant. Don't have a problem with tradies, but there are almost always 2 prices with what tradies charge & how do they get away with adding GST ? B to C transactions are meant to include GST. Only B to B transactions, can add GST after.

So with your argument, why not pay pilots more, a lot more ?

Because like any market, there's supply & demand. Massive glut of pilots now, which is not going away anytime soon & Joyce knows it & will call the unions bluff.

Have a read below. Don't think there's a paywall.

In any company there is a relatively fixed amount of money sloshing around that is available to pay the people working for the business. Employee remuneration is a zero sum game. The fact that Joyce took home over $20 million last year is absolutely relevant to the various pay disputes that happen at Qantas because there is a smaller piece of the pie left for the thousands of other employees employed by Qantas.

My argument is not that pilots should be payed a lot more. My argument is that Qantas management and their PR team are very publicly steering the narrative towards this being solely a money issue. It’s not.

Your claim that there is a “massive glut of pilots” is fanciful. Did you actually read the article in the link you provided? A letter from a desperate China Southern pilot is the lamest effort to squeeze your employees I’ve seen in a while. I for one will never set foot in a Qantas plane with a cut price Chinese pilot. Sounds like a good way to ruin their safety record.

Also, you do realise that Qantas recently opened a pilot training facility to deal with a shortage of pilots?

I also maintain what I said about your attitude to well paid workers, especially tradies. Not sure if you just want your plumbing fixed on the cheap or you’re just miffed that you read some construction workers earn more than you do.
 

flyer89

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Because like any market, there's supply & demand. Massive glut of pilots now, which is not going away anytime soon & Joyce knows it & will call the unions bluff.
I don’t accept the premise. There is no massive ‘glut’ of pilots. If your referring the the expats that are being affected by the likely demise of HKA then many have already moved into other parts of the HNA group and some have been taken by EK etc. If your referring to actually Chinese nationals actually being recruited by Australian airlines that’s simply not how it works.

Regardless, the affected pilots need jobs now and no Australian airline is recruiting at present. Many are also expats from other countries. This IR playbook is a well trodden road. I’m surprised people still fall for it and that goes for both sides of the argument. All I can tell you from my first hand experience at the relative bottom is that a problem is developing and will very likely increase in the next 5-10 years. The cost of an instructor rating is now north of $24k. People simply don’t have the money and there are many other complex reasons why people are not pursuing a career in aviation.
 

juddles

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Worth noting that these poor starving Chinese airline pilots that have been spoken of are paid up to 500k pa AFTER tax. Contracts come with risk.

We have an odd attitude in Australia. Shouldn’t we want wages to go up, not fight to bring people down.

A wide body captain is at the end of their long career. The high wage has a very defined end date for them and only lasts a short period. Not too different to most professionals after decades of experience.
That surprises me. The Chinese pilots get half a million dollars per annum after tax? Where did you dig this up? I agree with the gist that long -serving professionals are worth a lot. But I am truly astounded that Chinese pilots were on the sort of wicket you state.... begs the question what the senior Qantas pilots get, and if less than half a million, why they have not jumped ship using qualifications that are clearly without borders....
 

juddles

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I think this is an area where value for experience and hard work starts to get a tad difficult. I really and truly acknowledge the importance of solid pilots, but when facts come out about salaries things start to get clouded.

In a previous life I worked as a police officer. In the first few years - really the first decade - you got somewhere around $70 k to $80k per annum. This is a deal based on you doing night shifts, 24 hour availabilty, etc. If you reached the dizzy heights of Senior Sergeant you actually sufferred a pay drop as you were then on a day shift basis. If you managed to climb the ladder you may expect about $120k per annum after about 20 - 30 years. The stellar career climbers could perhaps manage $200k after three decades or so, but they are the tiny minority.There are very few top jobs in the Queensland police. Literally just dozens. Effectively as a police officer you plateau at about $100k despite a full lifetime in the job. I suspect that similar abounds in many facets of life.

From that perspective, when people are on $200k+++++ then it is a tad hard to warm to their arguments...
 

N860CR

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That surprises me. The Chinese pilots get half a million dollars per annum after tax? Where did you dig this up?
little first hand knowledge ;)

Admittedly that is the extreme end for a China based non-commuter, however the money is there. The risk is just that an unpaid holiday may arise during tough times.

The option is open to everyone, however plenty don’t like to leave the security of australia, especially with families to think about.
 

N860CR

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From that perspective, when people are on $200k+++++ then it is a tad hard to warm to their arguments...
Not all jobs are the same, and cannot be compared. We’re not communist here (for now anyway) and pay will differ from job to job. Can’t compare a police officer to a pilot to a lawyer to a surgeon.

I could play the same card (police officers go straight onto double the pay of a first year pilot, get secure employment, don’t pay 100k for training with no assurance of a job etc) but it’s totally irrelevant as they are different jobs.

The one thing in common is that there is a scary push to lower wages in australia and allow people like joyce to take home $2mil a month. If we keep forcing skilled wages down, people will either leave to work overseas or not bother to skill themselves at all.
 

jb747

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They haven't had a crash since Bangkok Sep 1999 IIRC, when they wrote off a 744, but had it repaired in China of all places.
One old myth, and it seems you’ve started a new one. The aircraft was not written off. And it was not repaired in China. Boeing has specialist teams that fly in and do this sort of work, generally in situ, because you fairly obviously can’t take the jet to them.

Because like any market, there's supply & demand. Massive glut of pilots now, which is not going away anytime soon & Joyce knows it & will call the unions bluff.
There is no glut of pilots. The vast majority who are going on a bit of gardening leave will be recalled by their airlines once this virus sorts itself out. If it doesn’t, the pilot issues will be the least of the economies problems.

But, you bring up an interesting idea. Perhaps we should have a ’spot’ price for pilots. It’s down this week, but I’d have loved to have been paid what it would have been last year.

That surprises me. The Chinese pilots get half a million dollars per annum after tax? Where did you dig this up? I agree with the gist that long -serving professionals are worth a lot. But I am truly astounded that Chinese pilots were on the sort of wicket you state.... begs the question what the senior Qantas pilots get, and if less than half a million, why they have not jumped ship using qualifications that are clearly without borders....
Expats in China get that sort of money. Quite a few QF pilots have gone there, generally on 5 year contracts, on leave without pay from QF. Some would not have been planning on returning. The money is good, but it’s generally described as a single pilot operation. Read into that what you will. Most of us don’t want to live or work in China....
 

drron

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Aussie pilots have basically always worked OS.Before retirement I was the usual stop for those pilots needing a stress test for their medicals.Living on the Sunny Coast where several pilots working for CX,a couple for EK and SQ as well.
Also is QF already hiring some OS pilots?The FO on our recent BNE-SYD flight had a definite US accent.
 

p--and--t

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and allow people like joyce to take home $2mil a month.
I am interested in following the banter back and forth, but lets not embellish the truth. It is a known fact that is not true. You are taking a one off for a contract bonus deal made in 2014 and extrapolating that to an annual/monthly salary. Don't fall for the media click-bait.

Edit: In all "legacy" operations and industries where there are radical movements afoot there is always contention between the established precedent and the desired paradigm shift. You only have to see the rise of the LCC in recent years.

BTW: I have the highest respect for Qantas pilots their perceived skills and ethos and always feel most comfortable knowing they are up front. I have no trouble with people collecting the salary they negotiated at the time of employment or at their periodic reviews. In my experience in the latter years of my working life there was often a wide disparity between the salaries of employees effectively doing the same job depending on when and how they were hired.
 
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From that perspective, when people are on $200k+++++ then it is a tad hard to warm to their arguments...
From that perspective, when people are on $200k+++++ then it is a tad hard to warm to their arguments...
So who in our society is worth $200K+ ?
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Every time I fly my life is in the pilot’s hands. That is why I chose Qantas wherever possible and are happy to pay a premium for it. If you don’t then that’s your choice ....
Exactly the reason I'm happy to fly Qantas instead of the far cheaper AirAsia or China Southern
 

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