MR point reversal on refund with no purchase

[kelix]

Hi all,
usually when I purchase something on the Plat CC i get 1.5 points and if i get a refund on the product i have those points removed.. no qualms there.

however in a few instances where I, say get a refund, without purchasing an item (TRS is a good example) i lose points.

11/08/2009 GST: TOURIST REFUND SCHEME CANBERRA ACT -$94.55 -95 0 -95
In this instance do AMEX parse the data so reconcile that no purchase was made and the points returned? anyone experience other iterations of this?

Jono

 

[Mal]

I don't believe Amex cares. Any "deposit" that isn't a payment seems to end up with a negative points transaction.

I've heard that you can call them up and request that they credit the points correctly, but havn't tried it.

 

[kyle]

That's why I give the TRS my bank account after I was stung the first time.

 

[kelix]

Sounds like bank Xfer is the easiest!

might try calling them.

 

[medhead]

I had exactly this issue with a TRS refund (well European version of TRS) onto an ANZ Visa. I simply called them and asked for the points to be given back. They had no problems doing that.

You should call AMEX, explain the situation and have the points put back.

Fact is that it is a refund that doesn't relate to any purchase you've made with your card and hence the points should not be removed. If they are not happy with that, you could say that the item having the GST refunded was purchased using another card or using cash.

 

[medhead]

Bit of an update on this, on my most recent trip OS I put the TRS refund onto my NAB card. Checked the points on return and missing points. It took a lot to convince them of their mistake. The CSR dealing with my issue said he was convinced about my point. But the back office points calculation people didn't accept it and kept trying to tell me that I need to make sure if I do a refund that I put it on the same card as for the purchase. Basically, they just could not understand that this was not really a refund but a credit of tax. They ended up giving me some (the) points as a good will measure.

 

[markis10]

Any refund from a merchant includes refunding the service fee, so a $100 TRS refund would mean customs gets $98 taken out of their account and Amex provide the other $2 assuming a 2% fee in the first place. The card company makes an allowance for the cost of the points as part of its fee, if it has to refund that fee then surely the appropriate points should also be refunded back to the provider??

I dont think its reasonable to expect points as part of your bonus for giving business to a card company then to expect them not to take away that bonus when they loose their fees in a refund scenario. I have heard that amex only refund part of their fee when there is a refund, in that case it may well be a case to not have points taken, at the end of the day the merchant looses out.

 

[medhead]

The issue is that it may not be a refund of a purchase on the card. So what is happening is that I make a purchase of $100 on my card. I then get my tax refunded from a separate purchase, by cash or another card of $1100 onto the first card. Hence a $100 tax refund and suddenly I'm not getting the points that I'm owed for my $100 card purchase. It is a case of losing points that have never been paid in the first place.

I'm also not sure how it is that you can conclude that the merchant fee is returned to the tax office. I buy something for $100 from the merchant, they pay a $2 fee to AMEX. The ATO/customs then pays me back the tax I paid of $100. But the ATO is not the original merchant so there is no basis for AMEX to return a merchant fee to the ATO. This is especially so if I originally paid the original merchant with cash. The situation described might work for a normal purchase and refund, where the customer is forced to have the refunded returned to the purchasing card. But that is not the case with the TRS, which is effectively a payment not a consumer refund. I guess the name of the Tax Refund Scheme is confusing for the card companies.

If the card companies don't like it then they need to enforce their rules about only using the card that made the purchase. Instead they haven't forced this rule on the ATO and they are ripping off customers and/or merchants.

 

[markis10]

I'm also not sure how it is that you can conclude that the merchant fee is returned to the tax office. I buy something for $100 from the merchant, they pay a $2 fee to AMEX.

I have had a merchant facility and that is how it happens with Visa and Mastercard and how it used to happen to Amex, no card company will open a facility purely for returns, and they return a part of their fee in that refund. Amex now dont refund that fee as they claim it as a cost of doing the business:

Why am I being deducted the full amount when I process a refund?
Whenever a refund takes place, American Express will retain the merchant fee that was charged to your account. The fee that we retain is Retain Discount Rate.

"American Express acts as an intermediary party between yourself and the consumer. American Express will be refunding the monies to the Card holder on your behalf in advance the very next day, only then would we debit your merchant account as we act in good faith of our business partnership. This process involves a handling cost to us such as processing fees, which we have been absorbing on your behalf. However due to the rise in such handling cost and financial charges, we can no longer absorb this cost."

Swings and roundabouts, you may not have purchased anything from the ATO in the first place, but plenty of people did, and the ATO got charged a fee for the privilege which helped to pay for the points those people get, when you do a TRS refund, they get back some of that fee because the card people are refunding the money. I am not too concerned about the ATO but now that Amex dont refund the fee to merchants then I think it sucks for most merchants, its just another added cost of business for them and less likely to incent them to take refunds in the future IMHO.

If you were entitled to points for refunds regardless of which card was used then it would be a pretty easy way of racking up points at no cost to you apart from the time involved, but it would be at the cost of either the card company or merchant, which is why most merchant agreements require refunds only the be made on the original card used, no doubt the ATO has an exception for obvious reasons.

 

[medhead]

I have had a merchant facility and that is how it happens with Visa and Mastercard and how it used to happen to Amex, no card company will open a facility purely for returns, and they return a part of their fee in that refund. Amex now dont refund that fee as they claim it as a cost of doing the business:

Why am I being deducted the full amount when I process a refund?
Whenever a refund takes place, American Express will retain the merchant fee that was charged to your account. The fee that we retain is Retain Discount Rate.

"American Express acts as an intermediary party between yourself and the consumer. American Express will be refunding the monies to the Card holder on your behalf in advance the very next day, only then would we debit your merchant account as we act in good faith of our business partnership. This process involves a handling cost to us such as processing fees, which we have been absorbing on your behalf. However due to the rise in such handling cost and financial charges, we can no longer absorb this cost."

Swings and roundabouts, you may not have purchased anything from the ATO in the first place, but plenty of people did, and the ATO got charged a fee for the privilege which helped to pay for the points those people get, when you do a TRS refund, they get back some of that fee because the card people are refunding the money. I am not too concerned about the ATO but now that Amex dont refund the fee to merchants then I think it sucks for most merchants, its just another added cost of business for them and less likely to incent them to take refunds in the future IMHO.

If you were entitled to points for refunds regardless of which card was used then it would be a pretty easy way of racking up points at no cost to you apart from the time involved, but it would be at the cost of either the card company or merchant, which is why most merchant agreements require refunds only the be made on the original card used, no doubt the ATO has an exception for obvious reasons.

Let's just get one thing perfectly clear I am not saying that anyone is entitled to points for a refund.

The repayment to me of my money is not a refund. A card is just another method of payment. The ato has no right to get a fee that they never paid in the first place. There are no roundabouts in this situation. The people who paid the ato still have their points even through the ato is geting the fee refunded. Meanwhile I've been repaid the excess tax paid on a cash purchase and I'm losing points that the card company never gave me in the first place.

It is simple the card company has offered to give me points if I make a purchase with their card but not if I return the purchase. I've made a purchase and I've not returned it. I've done my side of the bargain and I am entitled to the points that is not changed because a third party pays unrelated money owed to me.

Yes, it is unfair no matter what. But why should the customer be penalised because the card company/ato can't get it right.

 

[markis10]

The repayment to me of my money is not a refund.

In the eyes of the card company it is, they are paying out money to you, normally you get points when you give them money for purchases & I dont understand your logic of expecting points not to be taken back when you get money from them which is a reverse of the normal points earning scenario.

Why should you benefit from points being awarded for something that was purchased at 100% of the original price when you are getting back 10% had the purchase been on the same card? Why not just use a card that has not got a rewards scheme or a debit card and save all the stress, its not morally right IMHO to claim points on an item at 110% of what you paid for it but thats your call. To me using a card that has points for such a transaction that was not used in the original transaction is just plain foolish, you are asking for trouble.

 

[ChrisFlyer]

This topic inspired me to call Westpac about a similar scenario (just not with TRS).

I had charged $215 on my CBA Amex for an item, which was later returned by my partner. The store would only refund onto an Amex card, and as she doesn't have a card on this account (and I wasn't with her when she returned it), she used her Westpac Amex (as a secondary cardholder on my account) to process the refund.

As expected, 215 points were missing from my last QFF transfer (@1QFF=$1). After calling Westpac and explaining the situation (and them confirming that no original charge took place on the Westpac account to deduct points from), they have happily credited those points back to me

 

[medhead]

In the eyes of the card company it is, they are paying out money to you, normally you get points when you give them money for purchases & I dont understand your logic of expecting points not to be taken back when you get money from them which is a reverse of the normal points earning scenario.

Why should you benefit from points being awarded for something that was purchased at 100% of the original price when you are getting back 10% had the purchase been on the same card? Why not just use a card that has not got a rewards scheme or a debit card and save all the stress, its not morally right IMHO to claim points on an item at 110% of what you paid for it but thats your call. To me using a card that has points for such a transaction that was not used in the original transaction is just plain foolish, you are asking for trouble.

Sorry the card company is nothing more than a payment processing system. They are transfer other peoples money, they are not providing credit to the ATO.

I'm also only asking for points on 100% of my purchase. In fact the purchase that i make has earned NO points if purchased with cash. In addition not only am i not earning points on the tax purchase the card company is then not gibing me points for a separate purchase that is entitled to earn points. No need to misrepresent the situation to accuse me of being morally bankrupt.

You've also included a massive condition on your statement = "had the purchase been on the same card"
The fact is that it wasn't made on the same card. That condition doesn't apply as the card company has allowed me to be paid on a card that was not used to make the purchase. I choose how I'm paid based on where I want my money. If the card company is not happy with that then don't give me the choice. Simple really.

 

[markis10]

They are not providing credit to the ATO....... I choose how I'm paid based on where I want my money. If the card company is not happy with that then don't give me the choice. Simple really.

I did not say anything about them providing credit, regardless the main point is and I restate: "To me using a card that has points for such a transaction that was not used in the original transaction is just plain foolish, you are asking for trouble."

Using a debit card then BPAY would have achieved the same thing in terms of moving money (albeit in a two step process) without the agro or need for a followup, its your time being wasted

 

[medhead]

This topic inspired me to call Westpac about a similar scenario (just not with TRS).

I had charged $215 on my CBA Amex for an item, which was later returned by my partner. The store would only refund onto an Amex card, and as she doesn't have a card on this account (and I wasn't with her when she returned it), she used her Westpac Amex (as a secondary cardholder on my account) to process the refund.

As expected, 215 points were missing from my last QFF transfer (@1QFF=$1). After calling Westpac and explaining the situation (and them confirming that no original charge took place on the Westpac account to deduct points from), they have happily credited those points back to me

I think you are lucky to get the points credited and good luck to you.
However, I don't think you probably should have got the points in this case. I don't think it is the same as the TRS situation. But still I can agree it is a great outcome for you.

I did not say anything about them providing credit, regardless the main point is and I restate: "To me using a card that has points for such a transaction that was not used in the original transaction is just plain foolish, you are asking for trouble."

Using a debit card then BPAY would have achieved the same thing in terms of moving money (albeit in a two step process) without the agro or need for a followup, its your time being wasted

I think we are talking at cross purposes. I agree that in practice it isn't worth the pain. I also think that
in principle (or is that principal? I can never remember) that for TRS payments (only) the card company should not be removing points.

In terms of moving money, I take the view when I'm about to step on a plane and head overseas that I'm not certain when I might be able to access the internet etc. to implement the second step.

Learning point for me - don't have these discussion using iphone.

 

[serfty]

I'd simply use my Wizard CAMC to claim the credit and leave it at that!

I understand where all are coming from including the CC provider.

 

[Sunchaser]

I had the same problem a few months ago so I called Amex & they returned the points for me without any issues.