Moving from Y to J [spare seats]

[ramboflyer]

I have 2 questions about upgrades to J seats. In July my wife and I were in Qantas J seats on a flight from JNB to SYD thanks to the assistance of a AFF forum member. Going home from the UK to Australia this was the only way we could get 2 seats in business class using points. We had travelled from LON to JNB on BA in premium economy and for about 1 extra hour in the air for the 2 legs it was worth it.

Surprisingly, of the 18 available seats upstairs there were only 7 passengers with 11 vacant. A cabin crew member told us economy was full. By co-incidence the other AFF member was on the same flight in economy as he had booked a discounted fare. We had spent some pleasant time together in the Shongololo Lounge prior to takeoff as he is a Qantas Club member.

My first question is why the seats were allowed to remain vacant? Surely there were enough passengers who had applied for an upgrade using points? If not checking in staff would have access to information such as Qantas status or Qantas club membership which the AFF member was and filled up the seats?

The second question is should I have had a quiet talk to cabin crew (once in the air) and told them about the AFF member downstairs and asked if he could be moved upstairs? I admit to some guilt for not at least asking because of the assistance he had given me.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Upgrading from Y to J

I have 2 questions about upgrades to J seats. In July my wife and I were in Qantas J seats on a flight from JNB to SYD thanks to the assistance of a AFF forum member. Going home from the UK to Australia this was the only way we could get 2 seats in business class using points. We had travelled from LON to JNB on BA in premium economy and for about 1 extra hour in the air for the 2 legs it was worth it.

Surprisingly, of the 18 available seats upstairs there were only 7 passengers with 11 vacant. A cabin crew member told us economy was full. By co-incidence the other AFF member was on the same flight in economy as he had booked a discounted fare. We had spent some pleasant time together in the Shongololo Lounge prior to takeoff as he is a Qantas Club member.

My first question is why the seats were allowed to remain vacant? Surely there were enough passengers who had applied for an upgrade using points? If not checking in staff would have access to information such as Qantas status or Qantas club membership which the AFF member was and filled up the seats?

The second question is should I have had a quiet talk to cabin crew (once in the air) and told them about the AFF member downstairs and asked if he could be moved upstairs? I admit to some guilt for not at least asking because of the assistance he had given me.

Most airlines carefully manage 'revenue' vs 'upgrades'. If everyone knew they could buy economy, and likely fly in business, there would be a resulting loss in revenue. Not fully allocating every seat also protects the 'premium' element of the offering for those who have paid.

Talking to the crew would have been unlikely to yield any results. They shouldn't be able to process upgrades free of charge if revenue control has determined they aren't to be made available. It potentially queue jumps someone who may not have been next in line.

However, 11 seats vacant does sound like a lot when people were on the list!

 

[RooFlyer]

Re: Upgrading from Y to J

<snip>

The second question is should I have had a quiet talk to cabin crew (once in the air) and told them about the AFF member downstairs and asked if he could be moved upstairs? I admit to some guilt for not at least asking because of the assistance he had given me.

Jut adding a bit to what MEL_Traveller said. An in-air request for some-one to come from whY and be 'moved' to J (implies a re-seating for the entire flight from that point forward) would almost certainly have been refused, resulting in embarrassment to both you and the crew person. Its just not 'done' (although some-one inevitably comes up with an exception). The best you could have hoped for was a request to the CSM that the person join you for a limited time, maybe for a few drinks, but definitely not any meal service.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Re: Upgrading from Y to J

I have 2 questions about upgrades to J seats. In July my wife and I were in Qantas J seats on a flight from JNB to SYD thanks to the assistance of a AFF forum member. Going home from the UK to Australia this was the only way we could get 2 seats in business class using points. We had travelled from LON to JNB on BA in premium economy and for about 1 extra hour in the air for the 2 legs it was worth it.

Surprisingly, of the 18 available seats upstairs there were only 7 passengers with 11 vacant. A cabin crew member told us economy was full. By co-incidence the other AFF member was on the same flight in economy as he had booked a discounted fare. We had spent some pleasant time together in the Shongololo Lounge prior to takeoff as he is a Qantas Club member.

My first question is why the seats were allowed to remain vacant? Surely there were enough passengers who had applied for an upgrade using points? If not checking in staff would have access to information such as Qantas status or Qantas club membership which the AFF member was and filled up the seats?

If there are vacant seats, then all the upgrade requests have already been processed. Whilst checkin staff may be able to display a passenger list according to their status, they certainly don't have any authority to upgrade passengers to a higher cabin on a whim or because someone asks.

From time to time there may be an operational requirement to upgrade people to a higher cabin due to an oversale, however it's quite likely that pax would first be upgraded from PE to J according to their tier status then some pax may also be upgraded from Y to PE.

As a QF Club member he would be way down the list to be upgraded as PE pax then CL, P1, WP & SG pax in whY would be ahead of your friend so even if an airline eg AA did have a 'no J seat will remain empty' policy it's unlikely he would've been in the running for an upgrade anyway.

The second question is should I have had a quiet talk to cabin crew (once in the air) and told them about the AFF member downstairs and asked if he could be moved upstairs? I admit to some guilt for not at least asking because of the assistance he had given me.

It's not up to an airline to upgrade a pax as a thankyou because that pax has done you a personal favour. There are plenty of other ways you could thank them for their help ieg a case of their favourite red or white, restaurant voucher or even a Qantas voucher for future air travel to name just a few things.

Most airlines carefully manage 'revenue' vs 'upgrades'. If everyone knew they could buy economy, and likely fly in business, there would be a resulting loss in revenue. Not fully allocating every seat also protects the 'premium' element of the offering for those who have paid.

Talking to the crew would have been unlikely to yield any results. They shouldn't be able to process upgrades free of charge if revenue control has determined they aren't to be made available. It potentially queue jumps someone who may not have been next in line.

However, 11 seats vacant does sound like a lot when people were on the list!

Who said anything about a list?

The OP just assumed that there may have been people who wanted to use points to upgrade but I'd suggest any such upgrades had already been processed already and the available J class seats on this occasion exceeded the requests for points upgrades.

It wasn't a case of that pax ticketed in whY and having a points upgrade to J knocked back as there was no mention of any such request.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Upgrading from Y to J

Who said anything about a list?

The OP just assumed that there may have been people who wanted to use points to upgrade but I'd suggest any such upgrades had already been processed already and the available J class seats on this occasion exceeded the requests for points upgrades.

It wasn't a case of that pax ticketed in whY and having a points upgrade to J knocked back as there was no mention of any such request.

It's possible the available J seats exceeded requests, but it's equally possible that not all the vacant J seats were deemed available for upgrade purposes. QF states on its upgrade terms and conditions that classic upgrade awards are capacity controlled and limited.

 

[moa999]

And plenty of people who may have enough points to upgrade, may not have purchased upgradeable fares

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Surprisingly, of the 18 available seats upstairs there were only 7 passengers with 11 vacant. A cabin crew member told us economy was full.

It's possible the available J seats exceeded requests, but it's equally possible that not all the vacant J seats were deemed available for upgrade purposes. QF states on its upgrade terms and conditions that classic upgrade awards are capacity controlled and limited.

The OP only stated there were 11 unoccupied seats on the upper deck so I think it's fair to say that if there were that many empty seats on the upper deck there would have been a similar ratio of empty seats on the main deck in J eg there could have been a figure of 20-30 unsold seats in J.

I can't imagine a single traveller would elect to sit in a middle seat downstairs between 2 strangers if there were empty window or aisle seats upstairs.

With that in mind it's my belief that all J classic upgrade requests were granted and there may have even been bid now upgrades granted for people with insufficient points for the usual points upgrades as above.

Not sure whether or not bid now upgrades are offered on fare classes that are not eligible on classic upgrade requests.

 

[RichardMEL]

Comment...

those who pay for a premium cabin (cash or points) probably appreciate that there are empty seats - it means a more pleasant experience, hopefully more personal service and so on.

Some carriers (eg: SQ) are well known to NOT upgrade a lot of folks preferring to keep their product more exclusive to those that wish to pay for it.

It does seem that on that flight there may have been a few more empties than normal, but that could even be due to a missed connection (hard to imagine ex-JNB I grant you) or otherwise. OP mentions the "other AFF member was on a discounted fare" which possibly was not upgradeable, so short of a courtesy upgrade for a high status flyer it was prob never going to happen (and I'd also suggest JNB staff would be mostly contract and not QF and so not have any authority to do courtesy status based upgrades anyway, as opposed to say angels in SYD or MEL).

As for asking in flight? big no-no. Maybe to ask if a friend could move forward for landing to disembark together - that has been known to happen - but for full in flight service? nope.

 

[JohnK]

I can't imagine a single traveller would elect to sit in a middle seat downstairs between 2 strangers if there were empty window or aisle seats upstairs.

Mum would have great difficulty going up and down stairs on an airplane.

She was allocated an upstairs seat in business when she had flight cancellation a few years ago coming back from Greece and by persevering she managed to displace someone downstairs. She did get an aisle seat but I am sure she would have take middle seat had that been the only option.

 

[mrpooky]

Re: Upgrading from Y to J

Whilst checkin staff may be able to display a passenger list according to their status, they certainly don't have any authority to upgrade passengers to a higher cabin on a whim or because someone asks.

Hmm. I'm not sure if this is correct.

I have flown VA once in the last year or so, and that was a points J flight between PER and BNE, via MEL. Boarding in PER in the PB lane, I was held up for a minute or two by the two PAX ahead of me. She was a VA SG and her partner was a VA NB (red). She had been upgraded to J at the gate (op-up) and VA didn't realise that she was travelling with her partner, as they were on two separate bookings, so he was still in his allocated Y seat.

The pax started to complain about not being seated together, blah, blah, blah, and I confess if I were the VA staff member I would have just ripped up the J boarding pass, upgraded someone else, and given the couple their original Y seats.

Anyway, the check-in staff gave her her J boarding pass and him his Y boarding pass and suggested that the PAX talk to the crew on board to see if there was a spare J seat. Sure enough, after a very brief conversation between FA and check-in staff, they were both in J well before take off.

As an aside, this was the first time I'd seen anyone complain about receiving a free on-departure upgrade to J!

So, VA and not QF, but there was certainly a free upgrade to J given to the couple on the authority of check-in staff and FA.

mrpooky.

 

[drron]

Re: Upgrading from Y to J

Not QF or VA but 5 years ago we were flying AY BKK-HEL.There were several empty J seats.before pushback the FAs bought 2 women up from the back to 2 of the middle seats across the aisle from me.When they settled in they noticed there were more emty seats so asked if their husbands could be upgraded so as they could sit together.The FA told them if they wanted to sit with their husbands they could return to economy.Both stayed.
So if you want to travel in a premium cabin just pay-cash or points.

 

[timster]

Re: Upgrading from Y to J

Such things are covered in an appendix to the Qantas Operations Manual, under the heading of "When Hell Freezes Over".