Jetstar - Always Late?

[clifford]

My apologies if this has already been covered...

Has anyone ever been on a Jetstar flight that has not been at least a little bit late? The few Jetstar flights I have taken were all at least 20 minutes late, and checking the Qantas website, I haven't seen a JQ flight into Darwin that's been on time.

It seems to be a JQ culture issue ("you're not paying much, so we don't care about punctuality"), completely unlike some other LCC's, such as Tiger.

I'm a bit concerned, because I have booked a JQ flight to connect with a TR flight in DRW, which would allow 1 hour 40 mins for the connection if all is on schedule (I won't have any bags, so that's a plus).

 

[Petch]

My experience is pretty much inline with their stats - (1 in 5 segments seems about right)

Jetstar - Jetstar flights on time performance
Virgin Blue > On Time Performance
Flight Info - On-Time Performance

Problem is, you tend to remember your flights with issues more readily than the ones without.

Biggest issue is CATERING @ JQ ... fly back with them in the evening/late afternoon, and they have run out of just about everything. Even the unbelievable once, out of coffee!

 

[Evan]

A little OT but all airlines dipped in the second hard of the year, i wonder why ? i guess maybe weather, or bad luck or all driving there fleets a little harder, who knows. Just odd they all dropped in one time performance.
E

 

[Travel Guru]

The problem is that the LCC's and especially Jetstar and Virgin operate on much tighter turnaround times, and where Qantas has an average turnaround time of 40 mins, JQ and DJ allow around 20, so it doesn't take much for their flights to be delayed if something out of the ordinary occurs.

I find when you start valuing your time appropriately, I lose the urge to save $$ by flying the LCC's

TG

 

[crazydave98]

The problem is that the LCC's and especially Jetstar and Virgin operate on much tighter turnaround times, and where Qantas has an average turnaround time of 40 mins, JQ and DJ allow around 20, so it doesn't take much for their flights to be delayed if something out of the ordinary occurs.

Not quite true. Qantas have about 40mins but that's because they are operating widebodies with J class. JQ and DJ both have minimum scheduled 30 min turns (JQ pushed theirs out from 25 mins to 30 when they went to assigned seating). But both can have lower turn times than QF because they have different procedures (for example cabin crew and duty travel staff cleaning the aircraft instead of having to wait for cleaners to board the aircraft, do their stuff and get off). So LCCs are no more susceptible to delays than legacy carriers. In fact the best OTP in Europe is Ryanairs (also the least bags lost but that's another story). The actual OTP stats published by DOTARS show both JQ and DJ with better OTP than QF.

Where carriers with high frequency have an advantage is in recovery if a flight has to be cancelled - easier to re-accommodate when you have 30 flights a day (like QF & DJ on MEL-SYD) than if you only have 1 (like TR on most of its routes).

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[NM]

Dave, how does a cancelled flight show on the DOTARS stats for OTP? Just using the theory that QF a better capacity to cope with a cancellation due to more aircraft and larger aircraft (say on a SYD-MEL or similar high volume and high capacity route), could their OTP be improved if the cancel a service and consolidate pax onto other flights rather than continue the domino effect of a significant weather or industrial event?

I am not trying to say one is better than the other, just wondering if the stats can be skewed by cancelling and consolidating.

 

[tscharke]

never flown them and probably never will!

I learnt my lesson flying RyanAir in the UK :shock:......sleeping behind pot plants in airports became a regular event!!!!

 

[Love2Fly]

Has anyone ever been on a Jetstar flight that has not been at least a little bit late?

Perhaps surprisingly, in my last 10 or so flights with Jetstar only one has been late, all the others bang on schedule...

 

[crazydave98]

Dave, how does a cancelled flight show on the DOTARS stats for OTP? Just using the theory that QF a better capacity to cope with a cancellation due to more aircraft and larger aircraft (say on a SYD-MEL or similar high volume and high capacity route), could their OTP be improved if the cancel a service and consolidate pax onto other flights rather than continue the domino effect of a significant weather or industrial event?

I am not trying to say one is better than the other, just wondering if the stats can be skewed by cancelling and consolidating.

NM you are quite right. There are two separate measures to pay attention to. The first is cancellations, defined as flights cancelled or rescheduled less than 7 days from scheduled operation. The second is OTP (which can be measured either as departure OTP or arrival OTP but generally very little difference). An airline can indeed cancel a flight and consolidate pax onto other flights rather than operate late, and as you note cause a ripple effect through the whole network. This is done quite often, although not to fudge the measured figures but because it is actually very expensive to run a schedule out of whack as it has all sorts of consequences such as crews running out of hours and having to overnight, and extra crews having to be called out. But the effect is to maintain the OTP figure and blow out the cancellation figure, so you really need to keep an eye on both.

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[Yada Yada]

A little OT but all airlines dipped in the second hard of the year, i wonder why ? i guess maybe weather, or bad luck or all driving there fleets a little harder, who knows. Just odd they all dropped in one time performance.
E

In my experience this year on VB, there have been a lot of external factors.

Weather has delayed departures out of SYD quite a bit in recent months. There were at least two days where fog severely impacted OTP - we boarded on time and then just sat there until the fog cleared. A number of other occasions the weather (thunderstorms) resulted in the same thing - board on time, doors closed, can't go anywhere because the ground staff are not allowed out. This has a ripple effect throughout the day - when I get back to the airport for my return flight, everything is running late.

Another consistent problem is MEL - there are works going on there with the runways or aprons (not sure which) that seem to be slowing ops down. In the past 4 or 5 months on almost every SYD-MEL flight I've taken, as we approach the NSW/VIC border the captain advises that ATC have slowed us down and/or asked our flight to go into a holding pattern with the result that we arrive late. All of this is outside the airline's control.

The good thing is that I have not experienced one cancellation on VB, ever. I know they occur but I've yet to experience one!

 

[oz_mark]

In my experience this year on VB, there have been a lot of external factors.

I would think that the airlines have a pretty good handle on the reasons for delays, and could tell you how many delays were due to fog, weather, baggage, catering, collision with truck leaving gaping hole in fuselage, looking for passengers, deciding to put more fuel on, looking for the tow bar and so on. Given that 100% on-time is nigh on impossible, one would expect them to focus on the things they can do something about.

 

[crazydave98]

I would think that the airlines have a pretty good handle on the reasons for delays, and could tell you how many delays were due to fog, weather, baggage, catering, collision with truck leaving gaping hole in fuselage, looking for passengers, deciding to put more fuel on, looking for the tow bar and so on. Given that 100% on-time is nigh on impossible, one would expect them to focus on the things they can do something about.

Totally correct oz_mark. The other part of the picture is recoverability - things will always go wrong (external like weather or internal like aircraft U/S) so a lot of work also goes into how to get everything back on track. A delay in the morning can stuff the network for the whole day, for example if the crew are scheduled to change aircraft, that can delay two downstream flights - the one the aircraft is meant to operate and the one the crew is scheduled to operate. Then you get issues with missed connections....etc. and so it snowballs. The more flights in your network though, the more options to recover, but the more complex the knock-on effects.

cheers

CrazyDave98

 

[NM]

The more flights in your network though, the more options to recover, but the more complex the knock-on effects.

Which is why airlines make significant investments in resource management tools. Things can quickly get way too complex for a few heads sitting and staring at a schedule to determine the most appropriate solution.

 

[oz_mark]

Which is why airlines make significant investments in resource management tools. Things can quickly get way too complex for a few heads sitting and staring at a schedule to determine the most appropriate solution.

I did some work on some scheduling tools ones, for an industry nowhere near as complicated as airlines, but as you added resource constraints, who was permitted to do what, what hours people could work it was quite amazing how quickly the problem became very hard. While optimal solutions are hard to come by, the use of heuristics can yield some good solutions. Yes, how to deal with a plane going u/s is a complex problem.

 

[holrs514]

Jetstar has lead the field in demanding that passengers check in half an hour before the scheduled flight.

There should be similar penalties in place for when Jetsar is unable to have the plane leave on time or arrive on time.

 

[toowongman]

Jetstar has lead the field in demanding that passengers check in half an hour before the scheduled flight.

There should be similar penalties in place for when Jetsar is unable to have the plane leave on time or arrive on time.

No thanks. JQ would find a way to build that into the cost. Don't fly with them if you're on critical journeys. Jetstar for me is the airline to use on those serendipitous days when I'm in no hurry and taking it easy, and carrying a thousand page IFE system in my bag.

 

[Expon]

I hate flying Jetstar but when they are the only carrier that flys direct to my parents place I have a lot less choice. I noticed the last 3-4 times Jetstar has departed over 3hrs late. Each time the excuse changes weather, ATC, unserviceable aircraft, etc. I thought it was becoming too much of a trend and did a bit of digging and being associated with the aviation industry I was able to find out some disturbing information.

Jetstar does not have enough airframes/crew to meet its scheduled demand on most days. When this occurs they have no intention of keeping the planned departure times of cities that dont have curfew. ie Townsvile/Darwin to Melbourne don't have curfew so they don't intend on meeting the 7-9pm departures as there is no penalty if they don't.

I have written a letter to Jetstar about this and are yet to recieve a reply, been over 3 weeks. When I get something back I will post here. I can't exactly prove this and can only go on the story told to me by a Jetstar staff member. So this may or may not be true, but the shoe fits and consistant delays are not unlucky, they are trends.

 

[Evan]

Jetstar does not have enough airframes/crew to meet its scheduled demand on most days.

No doubt because they have had an aircraft go unservicable. I am sure they simple keep all there AC as busy as possible and have no spare capacity at all, and the way they get out of that is to run late on some flights.
If everything works perfectly i am sure it works out fine. But we all know how often that happens ! not very.

QF keep a bit more "slack" in there fleet. At the end of the days its the same old argument, LCC vs full service.

E

 

[crazydave98]

I can sympathise with Expon's bad run of luck on Jetstar, but it was just bad luck for him because overall Jetstar has a better record of on time performance and fewer cancellations than "full service" Qantas (and they use exactly the same system for recording and reporting).
http://www.btre.gov.au/statistics/aviation/otphome.aspx
Similarly in Europe the uber-LCC Ryanair has better figures than any "full service" airline. It's just wrong to infer that LCCs have inferior on time performance and cancellation rates when every statistic says the opposite.
cheers
CrazyDave98