J cabin on non-business marketed routes

[loobloke]

So I've been thinking about booking a trip overseas (I mean tassie!) for a bit of an adventure, likely LST.

DJ fly all three different birds there each day (via MEL), E90, 737, 738. Now they don't sell J on this route.
Just wondering what they do with the J cabin in this scenario.
Is it worth going out of my way to fit my flights onto a 738 (or E90 lol...)? Do they sometimes bump up status passengers?

Cheers

 

[Justchecking]

The J flies empty and they sell seats from row 3 onwards. If the flight is over sold they might seat people in rows 1 & 2 with my guess being highest status first. So you'd have to get a completely chockers 738 and hope you are the only plat onboard. Go with the flight that suits you best or an eJet if its likely you'll sit in Y.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

My experience is the seats stay vacant, even on chocker block flights. I do recall one flight when someone actually got 1C on his boarding pass (on an 800), seated (probably feeling very happy with himself) and then moved......somewhere down the back!

 

[eastwest101]

Yep - from what I have seen on regional routes where they don't sell J class they insist on flying the empty J or PE seats around the country completely empty, talk about a weight and competative penalty! I can only suspect that the legacy IT systems that DJ use means that they are operating in "computer says no" land. A classic case of the business serving the IT system, not the IT system serving the business.

 

[Jousams]

Im pretty sure you can pay to upgrade to premium seating at the airport on these regional flights.
I was at ballina airport a few months ago when I was still gold (now sliver) and I asked when business/premium will be introduced and he said that I could upgrade right now for $435.
It was in feb so maybe he was still going by the old system?



Sent from my iPhone using AustFreqFly app

 

[Fruitcake]

Yep - from what I have seen on regional routes where they don't sell J class they insist on flying the empty J or PE seats around the country completely empty, talk about a weight and competative penalty! I can only suspect that the legacy IT systems that DJ use means that they are operating in "computer says no" land. A classic case of the business serving the IT system, not the IT system serving the business.

That seems unlikely. If the Y cabin is genuinely full (168 pax out of 176) they're at 96% load factor anyway, and I assume they run with one less FA when there's no J class service.

Australian airlines are very keen to avoid the US situation where premium cabin travel is accepted as the god-given right of the status pax. There's plenty of comments on here about the lengths DJ is going to instil pax respect for the J cabin by policing overhead bins and the 'forward loo rule'. Routinely allocating seats in the front cabin on a non-J flight, even for status pax, devalues that. And remember late last year these forums were filled with complaints about DJ Y+ service in the new J seats in comparison to Qantas J clas. If DJ was to routinely offer seating in the J cabin on non-J flights they'd be opening up the floodgates of complaints getting upgraded to business class to Launceston, but having to pay $10 for a day-old sandwich.

It would be less of a problem if the Australian market was willing to accept 'convertible' J seating, such as in Europe, the QF 734s and (formerly) the AN 737s. That way if you need to put pax in the front two rows then they're clearly in Y, not Y+ or J. But as we saw with Virgin's attempts to offer that style of product on the 73Gs the market is not willing to accept that product here (and quite fairly so, in my opinion, if you're going to offer it at the same price as the segregated cabin on the 73Hs).

 

[eastwest101]

I take your points about devaluing the J product Fruitcake, and I agree with you. But as the J seats physically exist (on the B737-800's with J seats fitted) why can't DJ sell them as J class seats? And also for the E190's and the B737-700's with the PE seats - why not just sell them as PE seats? I find it difficult to beleive that the costs saved by having one less flight attendant plus the weight and fuel burn is superior to the forgone revenue of not selling J or PE seats.

What I am suggesting is that DJ merely sell the products that already physically exist on thier fleet. Rather than under-promising and over-delivering or over-promising and under-delivering. And yes I know that DJ have a mixed legacy and large fleet so one can't simply snap your fingers and reconfigure all your aircraft overnight to one consistent product.

All I am suggesting is that DJ accept the current reality that they still have a PE product out there flying around in some aircraft so they may as well sell it as PE rather than throwing their arms up saying its all "too hard". The customers are perfectly willling to accept a premium for PE seating and a bigger premium for J class seating as long as it is clear what they are getting when they book it. As they roll out more new aircraft and reconfigure the J cabins on the E190's and get rid of the rougue B737-700s then they can actually offer a proper consistent J class and Y class accross their network and stop selling PE.

 

[Fruitcake]

Good points, eastwest101. After all it can't be that hard to rustle up a J class meal in ROK or LST. It all gets even sillier when you consider that you can catch a J flight to your annual holiday in HTI, but there must be a reasonable amount of high-yield traffic to LST and ROK?


Interestingly Virgin America offers their 'main cabin select' product which is essentially the same as DJ premium economy was - extra legroom as well free run of the bar, buy-on-board food and IFE. And it manages to exist alongside their First Class product.

 

[Justchecking]

But as the J seats physically exist (on the B737-800's with J seats fitted) why can't DJ sell them as J class seats? And also for the E190's and the B737-700's with the PE seats - why not just sell them as PE seats? I find it difficult to beleive that the costs saved by having one less flight attendant plus the weight and fuel burn is superior to the forgone revenue of not selling J or PE seats.

I actually think the fly J cabin empty on non-J routes to be a good decision. So many complaints here about inconsistency, at least this is one area where they are being consistent. You can't buy a J ticket so you can't sit in a J seat. Simple. No-one gets confused and starts thinking they can buy J to Ballina or Launceston for example then gets annoyed when there's none of the expected catering and service that usually accompanies a J fare. Having 8 empty seats up front is still probably a lot cheaper than running two versions of the same aircraft type and trying to keep each on their respective routes. Check recent spate of aircraft subs and resulting upsets for proof that it's not as simple as we assume. By the time the fleet rotation is complete (year end I think) there will only be one type of Boeing on the network and they will all have the same cabin layout.

I'm also very glad they removed PE when they did and are not still trying to sell it. It didn't sell in the past so why would it suddenly sell now? Your argument that people are willing to pay a premium for a seat only doesn't ring true because they were not willing to pay for it in the past. PE don't fly empty on 700s (the only aircraft where they still exist, meaning the ones with the convertible table) they are sold and utilised as economy seats 3 across. Same as the rest of the cabin. I actually think that is the best solution to for the legacy PE cabins. Status pax still have priority for selecting these seats if they wish.

EJet is a whole other story. I guess the story is they have to run with what they've got because they've got no choice. They can't run them as economy only because these aircraft fly J routes as well as economy routes. It's the whole aircraft sub, no J cabin malarky that's been cropping up in these forums endlessly. Obviously they've had to run with this and schedule a cabin upgrade asap, which probably isn't as soon as everyone wants.

Maybe we need to accept that the few extra $$ they might make selling the 8 empty seats at the front would be more than offset by the negative impact it could have on the real J product, it's marketing and longterm viability. It's very easy to sit in an armchair and play airline CEO, but I'm sure there's more costs\benefits and objectives behind the scenes than anyone here really understands.

 

[Justchecking]

Good points, eastwest101. After all it can't be that hard to rustle up a J class meal in ROK or LST. It all gets even sillier when you consider that you can catch a J flight to your annual holiday in HTI, but there must be a reasonable amount of high-yield traffic to LST and ROK?

Really? Catering issues well documented on here seem to indicate that rustling up J class meals is harder than supposed. So you're suggesting that they should push aside their own market data and offer J on routes they've already researched and decided were not worth the cost, time, effort versus profit?

 

[Jousams]

There would be no harm in giving the SEATS to high status / flexis.
The FA's and check in agents could
Just inform that it's not business/premium it's just economy with a better seat.
It seams unpractical that flights can go full economy but empty business.
Because there have been many times where I've looked to make last minute bookings from ballina and the flights have been 'full' and I've been forced to go with REX.
There would be no need for the 5th FA on these flights either.


Sent from my iPhone using AustFreqFly app

 

[Fruitcake]

Really? Catering issues well documented on here seem to indicate that rustling up J class meals is harder than supposed.

Ha, excellent point.

So you're suggesting that they should push aside their own market data and offer J on routes they've already researched and decided were not worth the cost, time, effort versus profit?

In a casual, 'why can't I have it all' sense... yes. It's just my gut view that HTI and AYQ are unusual choices for business class services when other ports that intuitively have more business traffic (although presumably not, premium fare yielding business traffic). Unfortunately I don't have any data to work with to back that up, although I'd certainly like to.

But thinking further, if the upmarket moves from 'game change' allows them to increase average fares by 7% across the entire flight... that covers fares for the twelve economy seats in the J cabin on a 73H that aren't being sold (not making any allowance for increased cost base).

So to more directly answer your point - I agree with you that DJ's analysts have done their work. Just that, as a data voyeur, I'd love to see the numbers they based it on. However that's obviously never going to happen (unless I trade in my current analyst job for a DJ analyst job).

 

[eastwest101]

...Because there have been many times where I've looked to make last minute bookings from ballina and the flights have been 'full' and I've been forced to go with REX.
Sent from my iPhone using AustFreqFly app

That was the point I was trying to make - DJ just gave their business away to Rex there. Don't get me wrong - I am all for consistency of product but when it comes to the point of foregoing potential revenue then that does not seem to be a smart way to run a business.

On the other points - I accept that market research may have been done and that the old DJ PE product didn't set the tills ringing, but surely the ultimate market research is just to put the PE seats up for sale at reasonable PE prices and see if the punters actually take them? We know that Jousams would have. The PE seats seem to be going around empty anyway, so seems crazy not to try to get some revenue out of them even though they are being phased out.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Im pretty sure you can pay to upgrade to premium seating at the airport on these regional flights.

That sounds like the old "taster fares"....except for the price (shall I bemoan the loss of taster fares about now???)

we saw with Virgin's attempts to offer that style of product on the 73Gs the market is not willing to accept that product here (and quite fairly so, in my opinion, if you're going to offer it at the same price as the segregated cabin on the 73Hs).

The problem there was the fact DJ wanted full J fare for less than full J product. 2+2 does not equal 5!

as the J seats physically exist (on the B737-800's with J seats fitted) why can't DJ sell them as J class seats?

They have trouble right now supplying the full J product when sold as the full J product. IF DJ decided to offer upgrades to row 1/2 seating (as opposed to J class) or status upgrades and nothing more, I'm very sure the vast majority of FFers would understand the deal. They wouldn't be devaluing the J class (as they're not offering J class) but they perhaps could make a few extra $$$ for what's currently going begging. It may also make it more attractive to status flyers who endure these non-J flights, hence making the choice of airline more clear cut! Come on DJ, where's your lateral thinking gone!!!!!!!!! If I were a marketing dick at DJ, I'd be thinking about a campaign saying something like "Buy a flexi to your non J destination and be in the running to recieve extra leg room on us"! (Maximum winners......8 per flight)!

 

[Justchecking]

Re: Ballina and full flights. Didn't I hear about an increase in frequency to Ballina sometime this year? Couldn't tell you when though.
Re: HTI & AYQ with J. Packaged holidays might have something to do with it. I believe both those resorts are pricey and it wouldn't be out of the question for an expensive room to be packaged with a premium fare now would it?
Re: Empty unused J seats. Maybe they're just trying to extend the life of the investment by not wearing the seats and carpet out.

 

[MichaelD]

All I am suggesting is that DJ accept the current reality that they still have a PE product out there flying around in some aircraft so they may as well sell it as PE rather than throwing their arms up saying its all "too hard".

I believe the reason it's "too hard" is because J seating books into the same fare buckets that PE used to, so it really *is* too hard to sell both J and PE (since their computer can't tell one from the other - thus they can only sell J and PE seating for the same price).

Their solution was to set 737-700 = J0

 

[eastwest101]

I believe the reason it's "too hard" is because J seating books into the same fare buckets that PE used to, so it really *is* too hard to sell both J and PE (since their computer can't tell one from the other - thus they can only sell J and PE seating for the same price).

Their solution was to set 737-700 = J0

That is what I have heard from others as well. If so thats an IT problem and needs an IT solution - not a solution that throws away possible revenue. Last time I checked the business is exists to get revenue - not suit the outdated IT system.