FAA grounds 737 Max 9 Aircraft Indefinitely after Alaska Airlines incident

Duffa said:
Too lazy to read all 7 pages.
Has JB747 commented on the pressurisation warning captions? Orange or red?
Surely they were indicating a leak/weakness?
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If you mean the warning from the previous couple of days, I don’t think the NTSB has said what they were. When we do find out, I’m sure AV will be able to fill us in….but, I suspect that they were not related to this event at all. Leaking doors are very noisy, and every passenger who was nearby on the previous flights would be telling us about it.
 
ethernet said:
Never knew Boeing had outsourced to Spirit. See https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...-part-boeing-has-key-role-sources-2024-01-07/

Every bolt has to be checked with a thread thingy and part number on top, and multiple people sign off on the work. With reports of MANY loose nut or missing - boy someone should get into trouble.
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The new Boeing way is basically outsourcing. I can understand why the model on paper/in theory makes a lot of sense but in reality, not so much...
 
Must...Fly! said:
The new Boeing way is basically outsourcing. I can understand why the model on paper/in theory makes a lot of sense but in reality, not so much...
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It's not new, iirc they've been having spirit build things for a very long time now. It was originally a division of Boeing which they spun out in the 00s.

Pretty sure Spirit also manufacture some stuff for Airbus too.
 
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jb747 said:
If you mean the warning from the previous couple of days, I don’t think the NTSB has said what they were. When we do find out, I’m sure AV will be able to fill us in….but, I suspect that they were not related to this event at all. Leaking doors are very noisy, and every passenger who was nearby on the previous flights would be telling us about it.
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I just have a quick question if you see this jb747, I understand that you are saying that leaking doors are extremely noticeable and noisy but my question is - what if the failed seal plug is hidden behind interior panels and insulation? I understand that traditional doors and emergency windows would have a well-understood history and typical documented modes of failure (when they do happen) but this particular plug is a bit more hidden than usual.

These plugs seem to be the worst of all options, in this particular B737-Max9 model, the selection of this plug option has all the drawbacks of a novel and new point of failure in manufacturing and fatigue, it costs a bomb to reactivate as an active/useable emergency door as per the warnings from Boeing, and thus prevents future owners from going to a higher density seating arrangement, so presumes that Alaska intended to own and operate these aircraft without regard to resale value.

I understand why the plug and frame is there, for Boeing in production line economics every fuselage needs to have those frames for standardization in construction, obviously, some high density operators/customers will take the option of putting an active emergency exit door and take the cost of extra flight attendants and loss of a few passenger seats, the ones who don't, get the inoperative plug buried underneath the cabin sidewall, which literally has one job to do, and either by sloppy production line QA or maybe by some design flaw cannot even do that one job.

I don't think they'll ever find those missing bolts from that Alaskan flight so the question will remain about whether the bolts were even installed, or installed incorrectly, or there is some other flaw in that particular plug assembly. So it will be interesting to see the result of the FAA mandating a complete tear-down and inspection of all these types of plugs, and that opens up a can of worms that what else needs to be inspected in previously manufactured B737-Max9s? They are so lucky that this plug option is only available on the -Max9 otherwise we could seen all the -Max family grounded already, which is still possible if they find more loose bolts in rudder assemblies or other such QA problems..
 
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Duffa said:
Too lazy to read all 7 pages.
Has JB747 commented on the pressurisation warning captions? Orange or red?
Surely they were indicating a leak/weakness?
Click to expand...
If the cabin altitude reaches 10,000ft a warning horn sounds with a red light directly in front of the pilots. This was added after the Helios accident because the crew got confused as the it’s the same horn as the take off warning configuration.

As a side note, the masks will only automatically drop when the cabin altitude reaches 14,000ft.

I think I’ve read somewhere that because the door wasn’t an actual door that there was no yellow caution light to show that it wasn’t locked in place.

I’ve had times when cabin crew have thought they’ve closed the door with the handle being in the “locked” position, yet we still got the master caution light up the front to show the pins weren’t actually in place. Note: This was an NG not a MAX.
 
Big John said:
Thanks Basaka.

I have changed my upcoming AS flights to avoid their Max-9 aircraft.

I'm not so much worried about door plugs falling off, I'm more worried about flights getting cancelled and being stuck in a US airport !
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Hopefully you’ll be in a better position… but they’ll prolly have to move their fleet around, using others to cover the cancelled M9 flights. Their schedule will be a mess :(
 
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eastwest101 said:
I just have a quick question if you see this jb747, I understand that you are saying that leaking doors are extremely noticeable and noisy but my question is - what if the failed seal plug is hidden behind interior panels and insulation? I understand that traditional doors and emergency windows would have a well-understood history and typical documented modes of failure (when they do happen) but this particular plug is a bit more hidden than usual.
Click to expand...
I don't know that door plugs are in themselves unusual, though I've never come across one. But, for an aircraft to leak enough air to actually be noticeable to the system, then it would have to be a pretty horrendous leak. Aircraft leak like sieves anyway, and the only reason they stay pressurised is that air is pumped in to replace what is lost. If you turn the packs off at altitude, you'd better not waste any time heading down, as the cabin will start climbing immediately. Not super rapidly, but enough to catch you if you were silly enough to test this out. So, even though there was paneling around the door, you'd expect all of the cracks and various openings to have their own little howl to add to the cacophony.

Plus I doubt that his was a gradual failure. It would have been closed, until suddenly it managed to move enough to clear the tabs, at which point the rest of the sequence would be over in less than a second.
eastwest101 said:
These plugs seem to be the worst of all options, in this particular B737-Max9 model, the selection of this plug option has all the drawbacks of a novel and new point of failure in manufacturing and fatigue, it costs a bomb to reactivate as an active/useable emergency door as per the warnings from Boeing, and thus prevents future owners from going to a higher density seating arrangement, so presumes that Alaska intended to own and operate these aircraft without regard to resale value.
Click to expand...
Actually I can't see why it costs a bomb, other than Boeing wanting it to. The door frame is there, as is the surrounding structure. Looks like a DIY job for a couple of pilots over the weekend. I'll bet any associated wiring is also there, just not connected. I don't know how the slides are handled for these doors, but presumably the storage area is still there, or is part of the door.
eastwest101 said:
I don't think they'll ever find those missing bolts from that Alaskan flight so the question will remain about whether the bolts were even installed, or installed incorrectly, or there is some other flaw in that particular plug assembly.
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If the bolts were installed, there will be some form of witness marks on the inside of the bolt holes. And as they won't all have undone themselves at the same time, presumably some would have ripped out if even partially done up. I'd expect they're still at the Spirit factory though.
Quickstatus said:
Don't they regularly use Speedtape?
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No MBA would sign off on that much Speedtape. It would be cheaper to fix the aircraft. But, they may have progressed to duct tape. Looks the same, so it must be just as good.

NOTE: Plug type doors, and door plugs, are not the same thing. These plugs are, to a degree, held in by internal pressure, but it's a big stretch to call them any sort of plug door.
 
There are plug doors - held in place by pressure differentials and movable latches - the usual type of passenger door. The latches are only there for operation where there is no pressure differentials - on the ground for example. Plug door describes a type of aircraft door

Then there are door plugs like this one - held in place by pressure differentials and, (maybe optionally in this case), 4 bolts. But it is not a door
 
Mmmmmm 😦

US regulator grounds Boeing 737 MAX 9 airplanes indefinitely​


The US aviation regulator has extended the grounding of Boeing 737 MAX 9 airplanes indefinitely and announced it will tighten oversight of Boeing itself after a cabin panel broke off a new jet in mid-flight.

Key points:​

  • Alaska Airlines and United Airlines have had to cancel hundreds of flights because of the groundings
  • The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating if the MAX 9 jet was missing or had improperly tightened bolts
  • FAA Administrator Mike Whitaker says he sees the MAX 9 problems as a manufacturing issue, not a design problem
Full story:
www.abc.net.au

US regulator grounds all Boeing 737 MAX 9 airplanes indefinitely, as inspections of each aircraft continue

The Federal Aviation Administration said the continued grounding of the planes was for the safety of American travellers.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
I can understand why Boeing do not recheck every nut and bolt on assemblies delivered to them by suppliers. If they had to do that, then there would be little point to having the item outsourced in the first place (which is a separate issue, as this supplier, in particular, was originally a Boeing division). So a fuselage comes from Spiriit, it’s lifted off the train that delivers it, and put on to the assembly line. This would be the same for any subassembly, from engines to seats. Whilst I think Boeing has fallen well and truly off the rails, the angst here should be directed at Spirit.

Speaking of falling off the rails…
 
Boeing really under the spotlights now. ANA 737 non max issue reported in the media.
Boeing plane returns to airport in Japan after crack found in coughpit window | Japan | The Guardian
 

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