Cancellation of flight

[MEL_Traveller]

Ok. Strange that the extraordinary circumstances exclusion applies to one type of consumer rights but not the other.

Based on what @Pushka says it seems easy to get the refund?! And find a suitable alternative seems easy enough.

I guess it comes down to the minimum level of protection. You have your underlying contract, to get from A to B. If something happens, the airline still needs to get you from A to B or refund you, extraordinary circumstances or not.

The compensation is for the inconvenience, to protect passengers from airlines cancelling flights due to low bookings, and to allow you to make alternative arrangements at short notice. However, there will be some situations where the cancellation or delay is completely outside the airline's control, and it would be unfair to make them pay compensation.

Refunds are a bit tricky at the moment. Some countries have suspended the requirement for a refund, allegedly in breach of EU law. They have said airlines can offer a voucher. For airlines still offering refunds, some are quick, but others are really dragging their feet. Picking up on Pushka's point, this can also impact chargebacks, and your ability to do one. We saw with Virgin for example that many credit card companies (not all), refused to refund even though VA went into liquidation and cancelled their flights.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Has this just happened as of last night? I think my niece encountered similar with SQ once the flights to Adelaide were cancelled last month (not SQ issue but SA) but then rebooking SQ offerings weren't good at all so when JAL from Paris opened up a couple of weeks ago she abandoned SQ and flew with JAL. No issues at all.

Yes yesterday. Did she have delays getting her refund from SQ? Will pass on the info re JAL.

 

[Pushka]

Yes yesterday. Did she have delays getting her refund from SQ? Will pass on the info re JAL.

I’ll check. It was Adelaide’s issue though not SQ so likely that may make a difference too. It only happened a month ago.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I’ll check. It was Adelaide’s issue though not SQ so likely that may make a difference too. It only happened a month ago.

In that case yes not SQ’s fault, but this is the second one we know of SQ doing. Another doctor friend was due to fly SQ from London on 27 December in Y+. They cancelled the flight and would only rebook if the fare difference was paid. The girl pushed and they ended up booking with no additional charge, but changed the leg from Singapore for Y+ to Y. She was happy with that as the long leg was still in Y+. Know it’s hard for airlines at the moment, but some of this stuff seems a bit short sighted.

she has now emailed SQ and waiting for a response. My advice to her was just pay the extra and get back to Australia and then deal with it. She is supposed to start her new job at Brisbane hospital the day she comes out of quarantine and she has already had to use accumulated leave so she can leave her current job a little early, so not much room for any flexibility!

 

[Pushka]

In that case yes not SQ’s fault, but this is the second one we know of SQ doing. Another doctor friend was due to fly SQ from London on 27 December in Y+. They cancelled the flight and would only rebook if the fare difference was paid. The girl pushed and they ended up booking with no additional charge, but changed the leg from Singapore for Y+ to Y. She was happy with that as the long leg was still in Y+. Know it’s hard for airlines at the moment, but some of this stuff seems a bit short sighted.

she has now emailed SQ and waiting for a response. My advice to her was just pay the extra and get back to Australia and then deal with it. She is supposed to start her new job at Brisbane hospital the day she comes out of quarantine and she has already had to use accumulated leave so she can leave her current job a little early, so not much room for any flexibility!

And the airlines know how desperate people are.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

In that case yes not SQ’s fault, but this is the second one we know of SQ doing. Another doctor friend was due to fly SQ from London on 27 December in Y+. They cancelled the flight and would only rebook if the fare difference was paid. The girl pushed and they ended up booking with no additional charge, but changed the leg from Singapore for Y+ to Y. She was happy with that as the long leg was still in Y+. Know it’s hard for airlines at the moment, but some of this stuff seems a bit short sighted.

she has now emailed SQ and waiting for a response. My advice to her was just pay the extra and get back to Australia and then deal with it. She is supposed to start her new job at Brisbane hospital the day she comes out of quarantine and she has already had to use accumulated leave so she can leave her current job a little early, so not much room for any flexibility!

Appreciate the difficulties being faced, but with what has been said if you pay the difference now, you can’t expect them to refund later. Hope may be, but with covid being exceptional circumstance (strictly applicable to compensation, not cancellation) and corporate financial difficulties you would be lucky to get extra money paid now back.

I also noticed a Finnair fiasco thread on this forum. Not sure it dealt with the same EU regulation, but it’s now costing a fellow AFF traveler to settle at a loss (ie need to pay legal costs to Finnair)

Is an option to discuss with Brisbane hospital start date??? Would that take the pressure off to finding a reasonable solution with perhaps a one week or two week delay (if needed)?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Appreciate the difficulties being faced, but with what has been said if you pay the difference now, you can’t expect them to refund later. Hope may be, but with covid being exceptional circumstance (strictly applicable to compensation, not cancellation) and corporate financial difficulties you would be lucky to get extra money paid now back.

I also noticed a Finnair fiasco thread on this forum. Not sure it dealt with the same EU regulation, but it’s now costing a fellow AFF traveler to settle at a loss (ie need to pay legal costs to Finnair)

Is an option to discuss with Brisbane hospital start date??? Would that take the pressure off to finding a reasonable solution with perhaps a one week or two week delay (if needed)?

I agree.

Paying now and trying to get a refund later could prove difficult. I can’t see how a credit card would do a chargeback in something with the passenger actively agrees? SQ may also see the payment as being acceptance of the terms of the new deal.

The Finnair problem was same piece of EU legislation, but different issue, not related to this one. (The cost issue was also extraordinary given the company handling the claim went bankrupt, leaving the passenger to pay.)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

They cancelled the flight and would only rebook if the fare difference was paid. The girl pushed and they ended up booking with no additional charge, but changed the leg from Singapore for Y+ to Y.

That’s the outcome your daughter wants... and it seems SQ is willing to do so if pushed. But they really need to explain why they don’t think EU261 applies.

 

[Flying mermaid]

That’s the outcome your daughter wants... and it seems SQ is willing to do so if pushed. But they really need to explain why they don’t think EU261 applies.

Well it’s the outcome I think is sensible, but she would rather not pay the extra $3,000. I have told her to wait and see what happens after they reply to the email and if they won’t budge then pay the money and come back.

you have 6 years to put in a claim under EU 261, so couldn’t she come back and then claim to have the $3,000 refunded as it shouldn’t have been paid? The email trail would demonstrate that it wasn’t paid willingly?

to be honest I just want her back and maybe $3,000 is a small price to pay in these times

 

[Flying mermaid]

Is an option to discuss with Brisbane hospital start date??? Would that take the pressure off to finding a reasonable solution with perhaps a one week or two week delay (if needed)?

I don’t think delaying start is an option - certainly not just to save money. They tend to have very lean staffing in the specialist areas, so a person short has a big impact.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Well it’s the outcome I think is sensible, but she would rather not pay the extra $3,000. I have told her to wait and see what happens after they reply to the email and if they won’t budge then pay the money and come back.

you have 6 years to put in a claim under EU 261, so couldn’t she come back and then claim to have the $3,000 refunded as it shouldn’t have been paid? The email trail would demonstrate that it wasn’t paid willingly?

To be honest I don't know how you would claim for this under EU261. The 6 years applies where you are making a claim for the compensation specified in the regulation when it comes to delayed or cancelled flights. This up to €600 for long delays to longhaul flights.

before covid, I guess rebooking on the next available flight was pretty easy. I dunno how it works during covid, or what rights you have to get a refund. You would normally have to write into the national authority of the country of departure, but looking at the current document, the UK's information has already been removed https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/2004_261_national_enforcement_bodies.pdf

 

[Flying mermaid]

To be honest I don't know how you would claim for this under EU261. The 6 years applies where you are making a claim for the compensation specified in the regulation when it comes to delayed or cancelled flights. This up to €600 for long delays to longhaul flights.

before covid, I guess rebooking on the next available flight was pretty easy. I dunno how it works during covid, or what rights you have to get a refund. You would normally have to write into the national authority of the country of departure, but looking at the current document, the UK's information has already been removed https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/2004_261_national_enforcement_bodies.pdf

Ok thanks for that . Well all too hard - will see what they say when they reply. She did ask why EU261 wasn’t being followed in her email, but if they just ignore that and insist on the extra money, then she just needs to pay and put it down to Covid madness.

I understand airlines are struggling, but this doesn’t seem like a great way to win future business.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

... she just needs to pay and put it down to Covid madness.

I understand airlines are struggling, but this doesn’t seem like a great way to win future business.

I reckon that what lots of business will be relying on.....putting the negative experience down to a ‘one-off’ covid anomaly....hoping customers have short memories or competitors have equal/similar practices.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Ok so all sorted! Flights changed at no cost to Dr FM. Once again thanks for help everyone! I don’t know whether it was mentioning EU261, or my ranting on Facebook or just confusion initially at the London end about what they could do, but they changed the flights and fell over themselves to keep checking all was OK. I must admit that is more the sort of service I expect from Singapore.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Ok so all sorted! Flights changed at no cost to Dr FM. Once again thanks for help everyone! I don’t know whether it was mentioning EU261, or my ranting on Facebook or just confusion initially at the London end about what they could do, but they changed the flights and fell over themselves to keep checking all was OK. I must admit that is more the sort of service I expect from Singapore.

Who knows the real driver. It could be as simple as the agent being unfamiliar with the law ex UK/Europe. Knowing the right questions to ask during follow up wouldn't have done any harm

(As an aside, it's worth noting that not all EU261 cases will be binding on all EU member states. For example a case against Lufthansa in Germany will not necessarily be binding on a case against Singapore in the UK, even if the circumstances are exactly the same! It really depends on how high the court was that made the ruling as to whether that will apply EU-wide.)

 

[love_the_life]

Ok so all sorted! Flights changed at no cost to Dr FM. Once again thanks for help everyone! I don’t know whether it was mentioning EU261, or my ranting on Facebook or just confusion initially at the London end about what they could do, but they changed the flights and fell over themselves to keep checking all was OK. I must admit that is more the sort of service I expect from Singapore.

Excellent outcome for everyone. She’ll be back in Au soon even though Brisbane but close enough to visit. Bet that’s a relief.