Ask The Pilot

[cosi]

In the 90's I once experienced 6:40 in economy on a 737 from Syd-Per dues to extreme headwinds.

Toward the end, they may have not run of fuel, but they did with water.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

On last nights (31/5) QF2 A380 SIN-SYD services. The Captain introduced the tech crew as being 2 * Captains + 1 * FO. Would this imply the 2nd Captain would do the duties of the SO during the flight? I'm assuming the 2nd Captain would have been a Check / Training type who would need to be rated as an FO/SO on the A380?

 

[jb747]

On last nights (31/5) QF2 A380 SIN-SYD services. The Captain introduced the tech crew as being 2 * Captains + 1 * FO. Would this imply the 2nd Captain would do the duties of the SO during the flight? I'm assuming the 2nd Captain would have been a Check / Training type who would need to be rated as an FO/SO on the A380?

Any captain or FO (from the same type) can replace an SO. I did a couple of flights as an SO on the 380, after illness removed the scheduled bloke. I was probably pretty bad at it...but it was interesting watching other captains at work.

If a route check is being run, they want the check captain to be outside of the crew, so he's carried in addition to the normal complement.

I'm not the only bloke to have retired in the past year. By my count, they've lost about 10% of the 380 captains. So, I expect the most likely scenario would be that one of the captains was undergoing conversion training on to the 380. In that case the training guy sits in the right hand seat, and plays FO, whilst the FO, does the SO duties....and keeps a really good eye on what's happening up front.

 

[mjt57]

For how much longer do you think that Qantas will operate the 380?

It's sad that it appears to be on its last legs. It was the most comfortable and quiet aircraft that I've travelled in.

 

[jb747]

For how much longer do you think that Qantas will operate the 380?

QF...who knows. I'd expect at least another 5 years. The current management haven't done very much about replacing any of the aircraft, so unless they do something soon, who can tell how it will work out.

It's sad that it appears to be on its last legs. It was the most comfortable and quiet aircraft that I've travelled in.

It was/is a lovely aircraft, but the market moved in another direction.

 

[Quickstatus]

What are the SO duties?

 

[Himeno]

For how much longer do you think that Qantas will operate the 380?

What makes you think they might get rid of them soon? VH-OQA hasn't even been in service for 11 years yet (Delivered Sep 2008). They are about to go into a midlife refresh program. Qantas tends to keep aircraft around for 18-24 years.
Unless something major happens in the next year or two, there isn't any reason to think they'll get rid of the A380s before 2027.

 

[jb747]

What makes you think they might get rid of them soon? VH-OQA hasn't even been in service for 11 years yet (Delivered Sep 2008). They are about to go into a midlife refresh program. Qantas tends to keep aircraft around for 18-24 years.
Unless something major happens in the next year or two, there isn't any reason to think they'll get rid of the A380s before 2027.

I don't think I'd put any money on that.

OEJ first flew in 2003...and like all of the 747-ERs is an excellent aircraft. But it's going to be retired next year. So 17 years.

 

[torks]

Any captain or FO (from the same type) can replace an SO. I did a couple of flights as an SO on the 380, after illness removed the scheduled bloke. I was probably pretty bad at it...but it was interesting watching other captains at work.

I thought that captains/first offices were only trained to sit in the left/right seats and second officers switched between the two? I'm assuming in situations like this its ok for one of the captains to sit in the "wrong" seat during cruise?

 

[moa999]

Albeit VH-OEB which should be retired in the next few days was a June-1993 (so 26 years) delivery to Asiana and came over to QF 5 years later.

Qantas owns all the A380s and wouldn't be investing $$s in the refurbs if they didn't plan on keeping them 5-7+ years. Plus the Australian depreciation rules come into play with a useful life of 20 years - would require write-offs if you park them (and can't sell them - and there isn't exactly a second hand market).

But it all depends on how the network changes with the likely intro of the 359/777X and whether fuel prices remain at reasonable levels or increase substantially, plus whether CASA approves extended ETOPS for Qantas.

Also 12 330s (4 332s and all 8 333s) that are older than the youngest A380 and I suspect have higher cycles.

Plus a chunk of the 737 fleet.

So a lot of other capex before you begin to get to the A380s, but that has been a continual issue for Qantas

 

[jb747]

What are the SO duties?

Well, there is an old joke that says he's the captain's sexual advisor.

On ground they mostly do the external preflight, and some of the internal. In flight, it's whatever they're assigned, but mostly it's talking to ATC. They don't have any specific flying duties, only what they are given by the pilot on watch. That varies...sometimes you'll load them up, almost as if they were the FO. Generally, the more they ask for, the more they get.

Because they aren't quite as close to the controls, they actually had a good overview of the operation...and many an SO converted that into really worthwhile assistance.

I thought that captains/first offices were only trained to sit in the left/right seats and second officers switched between the two? I'm assuming in situations like this its ok for one of the captains to sit in the "wrong" seat during cruise?

Training captains can land from the right seat, and practice doing so. The rest of us could operate in the wrong seat in the cruise....

 

[jb747]

Albeit VH-OEB which should be retired in the next few days was a June-1993 (so 26 years) delivery to Asiana and came over to QF 5 years later.

Qantas owns all the A380s and wouldn't be investing $$s in the refurbs if they didn't plan on keeping them 5-7+ years. Plus the Australian depreciation rules come into play with a useful life of 20 years - would require write-offs if you park them (and can't sell them - and there isn't exactly a second hand market).

But it all depends on how the network changes with the likely intro of the 359/777X and whether fuel prices remain at reasonable levels or increase substantially, plus whether CASA approves extended ETOPS for Qantas.

Also 12 330s (4 332s and all 8 333s) that are older than the youngest A380 and I suspect have higher cycles.

Plus a chunk of the 737 fleet.

So a lot of other capex before you begin to get to the A380s, but that has been a continual issue for Qantas

It will be very interesting to see how it plays out. But, from my point of view, there is a capex cliff approaching.

Age, and even cycles, aren't the major part of the equation. Is the 380 being used to its best advantage? How do its maintenance costs compare? Does it have any second hand value? Are the engines a standard model...how easy are they to keep on line. Is it thirsty or economical?

But, yes, you are right. 330s, 737s and 380s all need to be replaced. I'm not too sure that I'd be ordering 737s given what we now know about them.

 

[Quickstatus]

Because they aren't quite as close to the controls, they actually had a good overview of the operation...and many an SO converted that into really worthwhile assistance.

So the SO could potentially have greater situational awareness?

Do you have an example of SO assistance that was worthwhile?

If SO communicates with ATC, does Captain and FO also listen in?

 

[Quickstatus]

Qantas owns all the A380s and wouldn't be investing $$s in the refurbs if they didn't plan on keeping them 5-7+ years. Plus the Australian depreciation rules come into play with a useful life of 20 years - would require write-offs if you park them

I believe the A380 are each owned by a subsidiary Australian holding company (ultimate owner QAL) with a lease to QF as the operator

 

[flyer89]

Well, there is an old joke that says he's the captain's sexual advisor.

According to my SO mates, not just a joke!

 

[jb747]

So the SO could potentially have greater situational awareness?

One of the problems for any pilot, especially in complex aircraft, is basically tunnel vision. When things go wrong, it's very easy for that problem to be like an attention black hole...pulling everyone into watching it, rather than keeping an eye on what the aircraft (and others) are doing. So, we train to manage problems with someone always designated to flying the aircraft, and whilst any issues are looked at by others. That's part of the meaning of 'flying pilot' and 'non flying pilot'. SOs can be in a position to watch both sides of the equation, as they aren't directly involved in either.

Do you have an example of SO assistance that was worthwhile?

QF30. The SO was off watch, but immediately came back to the centre coughpit seat. He didn't say anything, or ask what was going on, but worked that out for himself. His first comment was useful though...."the off track safety height is 8,700 feet".

After a dirty go around due to unsafe landing gear in LA, the FO was having trouble getting the FMC to accept the landing data. SO reminded him that it needed a cruise altitude to be entered (which is a minor quirk of the FMC).

A really nasty morning in London. Most of the alternates were not available, and lots of planning had happened during the cruise establishing 'what ifs'. The final plan was to fly one approach, and if that didn't work, to divert to Stansted. Whilst the weather was the same at Heathrow and Stansted, the runway alignment at the latter meant that wind was within the crosswind limit. SO took it upon himself to listen to Stansted tower during our approach to Heathrow, so that when the go around did happen, he was immediately able to point out that Stansted had also gone out of limits. So, jump straight to option two, and go to Amsterdam.

They are part of the crew but with a different view. Their input is used day in and out.

If SO communicates with ATC, does Captain and FO also listen in?

With occasional exceptions, ATC comms only happen from the front seats. So, if the SO is taking to ATC, then he's one of the pilots on watch. Everybody listens to ATC. The exceptions....well, departing Dubai, you had to call an Iranian military frequency before reaching their airspace. They only wanted a few details of the flight, and did not issue ATC clearances, but the call was required during a period that was pretty busy. If you had an SO, they'd take care of that.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Wow, so this is what's it's like to come back onto AFF after doing 12hr/4 sector days for the past week!

Being an SO for 5 years this is my give on it...

Well, there is an old joke that says he's the captain's sexual advisor.

I've given a lot advice over the years...still happens on the 737 too. No joke.

So the SO could potentially have greater situational awareness?

Do you have an example of SO assistance that was worthwhile?

If SO communicates with ATC, does Captain and FO also listen in?

Definitely. Not manipulating the controls leaves extra brain space to pick up on potential threats and errors.

We had landed in AUH on 31R. 31L was closed due to works. I had been to AUH many times in the previous couple of months and had become familiar with the many taxiway/runway closures in progress. It was midnight local time, 7am back in Sydney. So fatigue here was definitely an issue. The instruction was to take a certain taxiway.

Because 31L was closed it was not lit and looked like another taxiway (the taxiways in general in AUH are huge). So the captain crossed 31L thinking he was further along the route than normal. I was sitting in the 'naughty corner' (in the 777 if you're in the seat 4 position you really can't see much out of any of the windows). I had noticed the aircraft started turning left, from the corner I yelled out STOP! The captain stopped and turned to me. I showed him on the chart I think we're here and we need to cross one more taxiway as instructed to get to the gate. The other 3 pilots also checked their charts, concurred with me, the FO double checked with ATC and confirmed we were one taxiway short. Luckily I stopped him early and we could just continue after a slight correction to the gate.

The SO will only communicate with ATC when occupying a control seat. We used to fly 'seat PF'. So if the capt was PF and goes on rest then I become the PF and the FO will do the radios and vice versa. Virgin has this thing that no one shouldn't be doing anything so they get the pilot in the 'naughty corner' to listen in (there is no radio for seat 4 anyway) and write down clearances on the back of the flight plan. The SO in seat 3 would get the ATIS on VHF3 and also contact the company for arrival info.

 

[AviatorInsight]

What are the SO duties?

Preflight walkaround. Security checks in the crew rest and flight deck. Organise performance calculations, and then decide what to have from the business class menu. I had already eaten a sandwich or two, maybe some chips and some chocolate before pushback.

 

[flychrisfly]

Hi Pilots, in the following sentence, what does Left Base mean:
"An RPT, turboprop aircraft was on left base for RWY 34L at Sydney while independent visual approaches were in use."
Thanks

 

[straitman]

Hi Pilots, in the following sentence, what does Left Base mean:
"An RPT, turboprop aircraft was on left base for RWY 34L at Sydney while independent visual approaches were in use."
Thanks

You are making a left turn to line up on final approach.

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