Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

You've previously explained that flights where you are PAX for positioning reasons count as duty hours. In a case like a diversion to BNE where a new crew operates the sector to MEL after refuelling, can you PAX it (assuming an available seat) in order to get home to your family/own bed etc. or do the rules still apply and you're off to a Brisbane hotel for the night?

Very long duty times attract extra pay (overtime for want of a better term). As those payments would still be required, it becomes a balancing game for the schedulers. Is it cheaper to offload us for 24 hours (which attracts its own costs) or leave us on the aircraft. Is space available at the contract hotel, and what about flights home? Will making the trip a day longer have repercussions for other duties. Generally though, they will plan on offloading us.

 

[Melburnian1]

jb747, 'rules are rules' but this seems most unfair on you and your colleagues.

Isn't there a legitimate point of view that you have some sort of 'right' to be home doing whatever you want as quickly as possible?

From a fatigue management plan point of view, surely you'd be better off travelling as a passenger between BNE and SYD and then going home in your own time, snoozing on the way if you felt so inclined, and being able to sleep in your own bed rather than being forced to travel to an hotel, stay the night and return home next day.

Wouldn't also the relatively long number of days between many 'tours of duty' in your line of work make what happened for a day or so on the last leg (I'm talking BNE to SYD and then home for you here) somewhat irrelevant? After all, isn't fatigue management all about ensuring that you're at your best when you next front for work? (I am assuming here that you are in a passenger seat between BNE and SYD.)

 

[jb747]

jb747, 'rules are rules' but this seems most unfair on you and your colleagues.

The counter is simply that it's a business, and would be seen as avoiding some unnecessary costs. The reality is that there are rarely replacement crews, simply because diversions aren't planned that far ahead. I've never been replaced after a diversion (actually I've rarely diverted), and have only been a replacement about three times. The only place were replacement is likely is Sydney.

Isn't there a legitimate point of view that you have some sort of 'right' to be home doing whatever you want as quickly as possible?

In which case you can end the tour of duty, and then ask to 'alternate pax' home. That way all of the costs are avoided, but at your request.

From a fatigue management plan point of view, surely you'd be better off travelling as a passenger between BNE and SYD and then going home in your own time, snoozing on the way if you felt so inclined, and being able to sleep in your own bed rather than being forced to travel to an hotel, stay the night and return home next day.

Fatigue management is something that is more talk than anything else, and certainly won't come into play if you are either paxing or heading to the hotel. If I have the choice of going to a hotel, or 'snoozing', and then having to drive home....hotel here I come.

Wouldn't also the relatively long number of days between many 'tours of duty' make what happened for a day or so on the last leg somewhat irrelevant?

Sometimes there are substantial breaks between trips. But, it's just as likely that there's only a couple of days. And those days 'off', are, in many cases, described as 'available' days...which means you may be fair game for the classroom, sim, or even another flight. It's quite possible that you could have two days between flights in totally different directions (i.e. an LA follow by a London).

After all, isn't fatigue management all about ensuring that you're at your best when you next front for work?

There is no fatigue management. It's a bit like risk management...someone else manages, and you take the risk.

 

[Captain Halliday]

How long could a flight like QF16 be delayed before it becomes clear the crew would be out of hours and the flight never gets of the ground?

I'm asking as we are looking at a delay of ~100 mins. For the record, I'm please the tyre is being changed and am all for safety first approach. Just curious.

 

[jb747]

How long could a flight like QF16 be delayed before it becomes clear the crew would be out of hours and the flight never gets of the ground?

The limit is 20 hours of duty....so subtract 90 minutes from that (pre and post flight duties), then subtract the flight time. Whatever is left is your margin. It's about a 14 hour flight, so 20-1.5-14 = 4.5 hours margin.

But, like everything, it's not quite that simple. You can shorten the flight time by choosing a different destination, and it may become viable for the company to plan a crew replacement. Not all that likely, but there are times when Brisbane and Auckland are viable for some flights.

 

[747sp]

When VH OJA first came to Australia I believe the flight was a little over 20 hours . Would the pilots in that case have special permission ?

 

[jb747]

When VH OJA first came to Australia I believe the flight was a little over 20 hours . Would the pilots in that case have special permission ?

Whilst I'm sure that flight involved lots of coordination with the various authorities, it was not a commercial airline operation. It was most likely considered a private flight and so operated under quite different parts of the rules. Biz jet and cargo aircraft also operate in a similar manner to airliners, but for various reasons have rules that are nowhere near as restrictive. I guess Fedex boxes, and millionaires, are considered expendable compared to a few hundred passengers.

 

[por930]

Whilst I'm sure that flight involved lots of coordination with the various authorities, it was not a commercial airline operation. It was most likely considered a private flight and so operated under quite different parts of the rules. Biz jet and cargo aircraft also operate in a similar manner to airliners, but for various reasons have rules that are nowhere near as restrictive. I guess Fedex boxes, and millionaires, are considered expendable compared to a few hundred passengers.

The news about the flight at the time. 24 pax. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKVa7eog1mM

 

[QF WP]

Just come across this story from USA: https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/2910054...ts-on-board-allegiant-air-flight-426/?cmp=ydn

jb747, I just find it incredulous that the ATC was giving the pilot the contact details for Tower Management - surely it should be the ATC saying we'll arrange for somebody in ATC to co-ordinate with Allegiant Air management, as the pilots are required to aviate at this critical time. Can you comment please. I've also not heard the term "bingo fuel" before - is it a military term?

 

[jb747]

Just come across this story from USA: https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/2910054...ts-on-board-allegiant-air-flight-426/?cmp=ydn

jb747, I just find it incredulous that the ATC was giving the pilot the contact details for Tower Management - surely it should be the ATC saying we'll arrange for somebody in ATC to co-ordinate with Allegiant Air management, as the pilots are required to aviate at this critical time. Can you comment please. I've also not heard the term "bingo fuel" before - is it a military term?

Bingo is a military term (as it actually states in the article). Bingo would get you on the ground with the absolute minimum...in the military world that might be as little as single digits to dry tanks (it was about 12 minutes at mid level power in the A4, under 5 at go around pwr). In this context though, I would expect the pilot meant he would land with the 30 minutes civil minimum. As soon as the expectation goes below that, then it's already an emergency.

As I read it, he means that his company is talking to ATC management. Realistically, no matter how he came to be in this position, at this point management (both company and ATC) are irrelevant. Declare the emergency and land. Fill the paperwork in later.

 

[mjt57]

JB, question about routes and navigation.

Some of the lads at work are into an iPad game called "Extreme Landings". Naturally I had to have a look at it. It incorporates a flight simulator. Fairly basic stuff. Anyway, I "planned" a route MEL-AKL. Now, the track seemed to zig zag a bit across the Tasman. And the app required me to change heading on auto pilot using emulated thumbwheels, much like the real thing, I s'pose, whenever we hit a waypoint.

In real life, if you set the A/C to fly to wherever your destination is, does the same thing happen? ie. if you're halfway across the Pacific and the flight path deviates a few degrees, do you have to manually set the new heading or does it automatically follow the planned track?

If it's a manual function do you get alerts for this?

 

[jb747]

JB, question about routes and navigation.

Some of the lads at work are into an iPad game called "Extreme Landings". Naturally I had to have a look at it. It incorporates a flight simulator. Fairly basic stuff. Anyway, I "planned" a route MEL-AKL. Now, the track seemed to zig zag a bit across the Tasman. And the app required me to change heading on auto pilot using emulated thumbwheels, much like the real thing, I s'pose, whenever we hit a waypoint.

In real life, if you set the A/C to fly to wherever your destination is, does the same thing happen? ie. if you're halfway across the Pacific and the flight path deviates a few degrees, do you have to manually set the new heading or does it automatically follow the planned track?

If it's a manual function do you get alerts for this?

When the aircraft is in NAV mode (or LNAV Boeing), it is totally automatic, and you don't touch it at all.

 

[Shorns]

In relation to the recent CX884 event.... I guess it's prudent to prepare the aircraft for a ditching until you know otherwise, but what would a pilots line in the sand be? Ditching seems a generally bad idea so, assuming you still had lets say 10 minutes or perhaps a bit more until a piece of tarmac, what warnings, symptoms etc would make you turn the plane towards the water?

 

[andmiz]

In relation to the recent CX884 event.... I guess it's prudent to prepare the aircraft for a ditching until you know otherwise, but what would a pilots line in the sand be? Ditching seems a generally bad idea so, assuming you still had lets say 10 minutes or perhaps a bit more until a piece of tarmac, what warnings, symptoms etc would make you turn the plane towards the water?

It would take something very severe to get to the point of having to ditch the aircraft...they're designed so it should never to get to that point. Thinking of US1549, Sully evaluated every possibility of getting back to an airport before considering to ditch...Teterboro is quite close to the Hudson River but created unnecessary additional risk. All possibilities exhausted to keep the aircraft airborne to a suitable landing area would be my 'line in the sand'.

Shemya is a fine location for the aircraft to divert to; ARFF facilities, ILS, decent runway and it is the immediately obvious place to divert to; well known when flying that part of the world.

We can still successfully land the aircraft with the even the densest of smoke in the coughpit...thick enough to not be able to see your hand in front of your face, using a system called EVAS...essentially a big transparent balloon that sits between our face, the instrument panel, and the windscreen.

We were provided some information today on what occurred; the crew did a great job.

 

[jb747]

In relation to the recent CX884 event.... I guess it's prudent to prepare the aircraft for a ditching until you know otherwise, but what would a pilots line in the sand be? Ditching seems a generally bad idea so, assuming you still had lets say 10 minutes or perhaps a bit more until a piece of tarmac, what warnings, symptoms etc would make you turn the plane towards the water?

That line is going to vary with the circumstances. A ditching in the ocean is a not a very attractive animal....so the alternative would have to be bad. Very bad. Smoke as per the example...not a chance.

 

[Alanslegal]

That 4 min eyewitness clip is such a good insight - I would have been making skid marks in my underwear if I heard of a water landing and how to brace which the passengers did. That said, as mentioned many times it's reassuring that it was a CX flight crew (and not some backyard operation - and i admit i am guilty of flying LCC which is the catalyst for those operations)

 

[opusman]

Wikipedia has a list of water landings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_landing) and other than a couple of 737s and the A320 in the US1549 incident, the biggest passenger plane to have ditched (in the jet era anyway) is a 767 due to hijacking.

So the idea of a 777 ditching in the middle of the Atlantic would seem to be a very big deal and not something pilots would ever consider unless it was the absolute last resort.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

JB747 - was a passenger on last Wednesday's CX347 scheduled 10:00am A330 service from Beijing to Hong Kong. We boarded the aircraft on time and the doors were closed about 10 minutes before our scheduled departure. The scheduled departure time came and went with the Captain coming on about 20 minutes after the scheduled departure saying the airspace between Beijing and Hong Kong had been "closed down" and that Clearance Delivery weren't able to give them a departure time. For the next 2 1/2 hrs we remained onboard the aircraft with the Captain continuing to apologise for the delay. We eventually pushed back about 2hrs 50min after our scheduled departure time then waited another 60+ minutes in the queue for departure. The Captain on the flight was an ex Ansett guy and explained these sorts of delays were becoming more prevalent as the northern Chinese Airspace became more and more saturated and in addition Chinese Airspace was controlled by the military and they could shut things down quickly without any advanced notice to airlines. From an operational perspective when you flew the QF29/30 services between HKG-LHR-HKG did you ever come across these sorts of scenarios in Chinese airspace? Are there any other countries that you fly over that have similar "saturation" issues and/or where the military control the airspace? From a passenger perspective these sorts of delays must make it tough for airlines from a flight planning / operations perspective.

Thanks in advance.

 

[mjt57]

When the aircraft is in NAV mode (or LNAV Boeing), it is totally automatic, and you don't touch it at all.

Thanks JB.

If the aircraft starts to stray off course, say to heavy crosswinds or whatever, do you get an alert or alarm or does the auto-go-magic stuff merely pull it back on course?

Another one. If you get an alarm on an engine, say bearing vibes or metal temps or something, are you able to trend the offending points? How easy is it to select specific points to trend?

 

[Major]

I was watching a FO do a walk around yesterday and wondered if you have ever found anything that was quite alarming?