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AviatorInsight

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Thanks. The last three flights out I had were 7pm departures and A321 (every seat taken). All took the full length. All VA flights I have taken have taken the intersection.

What’s the glide performance like on the 73 ? You think at this point you would make the disused runway/taxiways etc...

The performance is actually quite good. It glides very well and has a naturally 'fast' wing. So you might even struggle to get it down on the cross strip (that'd be about 1000ft already) and we don't clean up until tracking 030º from that turn. So from that point you could even consider doing a 270º turn back to the runway and land on 33. It's something I'd love to give a try (in the simulator of course for anyone else reading). My bench mark is having a double engine failure on downwind at SYD at 6000ft and still making it in.

The 737 has more powerful engines than the 320/321. In almost all cases we can out climb it up to the high 30's even after they have departed well before us.
 

jb747

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AI. I was in Cairns the other week and noted on departure limited ability for EFATO should you lose both at or during the upwind low level left turn (15 departure)

Would you attempt a field return (dis used runway?) or put it down with the crocs?

EFATO...is extremely unlikely to end well unless you have a nice paddock, a river, or perhaps the sea, in front of you. You'll need to get to about 4,000 and perhaps 230 knots, and be within 5 nm to have the slightest chance. I suspect those numbers are on the low side. Mind you, you aren't a great deal better off in a quad. A twin can fly with half of its power gone, but a quad, might. Or not.

From my days teaching people to fly...what is directly in front of you, you might be able to reach. Behind you doesn't exist.

I also noted 50/50 of crew backtrack or not. It’s not a whole lot of distance but I’d imagine that little bit extra could get you back down on firm land.

It won't make any difference at all. You'll use more power, and probably be airborne at about the same spot.
 

jb747

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What’s the glide performance like on the 73 ? You think at this point you would make the disused runway/taxiways etc...

Interesting one for AV to try in the sim. But, just looking at it, I don't think you could. You have about 145º to turn, and turns bleed energy. Some nice ocean available though.

If you try to turn back and get it wrong (which is a pretty likely outcome), you'll have a very nasty crash and fatalities. If you aim 100 metres off the beach, the chances are that everyone will survive, and the worst that will happen is a swim.
 

jb747

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The 737 has more powerful engines than the 320/321. In almost all cases we can out climb it up to the high 30's even after they have departed well before us.

Engine power is similar though, at around 25,000lb, isn't it? I found Airbus was inclined towards much greater levels of derate than Boeing.
 
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flyer89

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From my days teaching people to fly...what is directly in front of you, you might be able to reach. Behind you doesn't exist.

I have to drill that into some students. One wanted to engage in some philosophical discussion about whether it was ‘possible’. Too much reading of Pprune I think. When you have 10 hours to your name and are decidedly not Bob Hoover the only option you have is nose down, 30 degrees either side.
 
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Pilots, it seems the current smoke situation and reduced visibility isn't having a great impact on operations at MEL and SYD. Is there a reason this is significantly different to fog, which can cause significant delays and closures when thick enough? I was at Mel today and visibility was very poor from the ground (I didn't fly)
 

jb747

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Pilots, it seems the current smoke situation and reduced visibility isn't having a great impact on operations at MEL and SYD. Is there a reason this is significantly different to fog, which can cause significant delays and closures when thick enough? I was at Mel today and visibility was very poor from the ground (I didn't fly)

The haze became so bad that most Canberra operations stopped, so I guess Sydney and Melbourne have been fortunate enough not to be particularly affected. I live much closer to the the fires, and for most of today, the visibility in my street would qualify for Cat III or worse. If operations haven't been affected, then the visibility has been at least 800 metres. Melbourne is upwind of most of the fires, so I'm surprised that there is much smoke at all.
 

jb747

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I have to drill that into some students. One wanted to engage in some philosophical discussion about whether it was ‘possible’. Too much reading of Pprune I think. When you have 10 hours to your name and are decidedly not Bob Hoover the only option you have is nose down, 30 degrees either side.

You'll walk away from that....though at 10 hours, perhaps 15º would be more than enough. Nose down is hard enough for some.

The joy of instructing.

Which reminds me of a tale. For a few months, I used to do some of the standards rides with new instructors at Pt Cook. Basically it
consisted of going for fly with them, showing them the area and a few local procedures. There wasn't a great deal of point in playing Bloggs, as they'd been dealing with the make believe students for the past few months at East Sale (CFS, where the RAAF train instructors). Anyway, as soon as they'd done this ride, they'd get to meet a real Bloggs.

There was an old airfield in the Pt Cook training area, just west of Werribee. It had no runways...just a grass field. It's now a housing estate. But, it was a perfect target for a glide approach. So, I'd ensure the aircraft was somewhere in the vicinity, and get the new instructor to demonstrate a PFL. They all did, beautifully. Just like many of the Bloggs would. And at the end of the demo, as they were mentally ticking the [done] box, and starting to climb away, I gave them another practice failure. Bloggs is trying to get you into the field. His exercise ends if he gets to a reasonable point to land. But as an instructor you need to consider what may happen if the engine really fails, and the worst time for that is after the practice PFL. So, always consider the gaps in the trees...
 
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Dale Eastham

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I have to drill that into some students. One wanted to engage in some philosophical discussion about whether it was ‘possible’. Too much reading of Pprune I think. When you have 10 hours to your name and are decidedly not Bob Hoover the only option you have is nose down, 30 degrees either side.
Thats exactly what was drilled into me when learning to fly (gliders) "that rope breaks right after take-off, you look within 'this' area (held out arms either side of my head like blinkers as I sat in the coughpit, lined up on the runway) - thats where you're going, so pick somewhere".

That simple demonstration I've never, ever forgotten.
 

AviatorInsight

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Engine power is similar though, at around 25,000lb, isn't it? I found Airbus was inclined towards much greater levels of derate than Boeing.

Yes you’re right. They must keep their derate throughout the climb all the way to cruise? If we derate, then at 15,000ft, thrust automatically changes to full climb for the remainder.
 
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AviatorInsight

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Pilots, it seems the current smoke situation and reduced visibility isn't having a great impact on operations at MEL and SYD. Is there a reason this is significantly different to fog, which can cause significant delays and closures when thick enough? I was at Mel today and visibility was very poor from the ground (I didn't fly)

Funnily enough I had to conduct my first autoland in anger the other week into SYD due to visibility. The tower couldn’t see us when we landed and they had to get the safety car to report the visibility, because the electronic equipment couldn’t detect the very fine particles of smoke and thought the visibility was fine.
 

Saab34

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Any issues with aircraft performance around smoke? No issue flying through it? What about a piston?
 

jb747

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Yes you’re right. They must keep their derate throughout the climb all the way to cruise? If we derate, then at 15,000ft, thrust automatically changes to full climb for the remainder.
I don't know how much I can extrapolate the 380 to the 320, but there were four climb ratings. Full, derate 1 through 3. They washed out at about FL300. Even at max weight, we generally climbed at rating 2.
 

jb747

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Any issues with aircraft performance around smoke? No issue flying through it? What about a piston?
Performance. No, I can't think of anything much. It's not like volcanic ash, that melts and then congeals within the engines, or blocks the pitots and abrades leading edges. It will get into the cabin though, with issues of air quality, and if enough is present, it can set off smoke detectors. That's a particular issue if the cargo detectors go off, as the procedure for that involves remotely firing off the fire suppression, and there isn't an avenue to ignore such an alarm.
 

jb747

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Funnily enough I had to conduct my first autoland in anger the other week into SYD due to visibility. The tower couldn’t see us when we landed and they had to get the safety car to report the visibility, because the electronic equipment couldn’t detect the very fine particles of smoke and thought the visibility was fine.
I did many over the years, but most were in Cat I or better, and just for practice. It was interesting the way the capability changed though. First it was 200 meters, and it progressively stepped down until at the end the there was no required visibility at all. Taxiing became the biggest issue.
 

tgh

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that rope breaks right after take-off, you look within 'this' area

You guys with aero tows have it easy these days.. We used fencing wire with auto tow and it would always break just off the deck at that point where you are dragging the nose up as hard as you can to get an extra 100ft from the launch.
It's quite an experience …..
 

mikenz

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I was on a flight recently coming into Syd where the captain made his descent announcement and said conditions were Smokey so we might smell smoke. He also said he’d reduce the amount of air coming into the cabin. Is this possible? It was Qantas A330
 

jb747

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I was on a flight recently coming into Syd where the captain made his descent announcement and said conditions were Smokey so we might smell smoke. He also said he’d reduce the amount of air coming into the cabin. Is this possible? It was Qantas A330
I'm looking at the A380, but I expect the 330 will be similar....

Given that this has been going on for some time, I would expect that the company has come out with a procedure for each of the fleets to minimise smoke ingress to the cabin. So, it's most likely a tested procedure, and not something invented in a bar by the pilots.

But, the packs can be operated in 'low' mode. That normally happens automatically in the cruise, but can be manually selected. Flow is about 80% of normal. Recirculation could be turned off, which will limit the spread of any smoke smells.

Alternatively, I wonder if increasing the pack flow (high), coupled with vents off, might work better.
 

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