Ask The Pilot

Can you talk about trim please. I had always understood or assumed trim to relate to the cancelation of a moment that would cause a plane to roll but is this the only axis that needs trimming?

Trim. This mostly applies to non FBW aircraft...but includes everything from a Cessna to a 747.

When an aircraft is in trim, and in an otherwise steady state (i.e. level flight, not accelerating or decelerating, or turning), you can take your hands off the controls, and it will basically stay in the same position. The amount and type of trim available varies. Some aircraft are trimmed by putting small biases into the flight controls. Others have small tabs on the controls that have the effect of moving them slightly. Most aircraft can be trimmed in roll, pitch and yaw.

Any change to the state of the aircraft will result in a new trim requirement. Pilots are taught to hold the load in the controls until the aircraft reaches it's new 'steady state', and to then trim out any loads. You don't fly by trimming... So basically make whatever the change is, hold the load, trim it out...in that order. You don't trim into transient states, i.e. you don't trim in a turn.

In piston engined aircraft, there is always some interaction between the prop flow and the rudder, so invariably there is some yaw input required with any power changes. In jet aircraft (as long as all of the engines are running), there is very little rudder trim required.

Aircraft become a bit bent over their lives (and some start that way), so they will often need different roll and yaw trim at different speeds. Asymmetric loads (of either fuel or stores) also require roll trim, and again the amount will vary with speed 'cos the amount of lift being made by the trimmed surface varies with speed, but the load roll moment doesn't.

Military aircraft often have a 'coughed hat' on top of the joystick, and that puts the roll and pitch trim right under your thumb.

Pitch trim has to counter power settings from idle to full power, and speeds from the stall to the maximum, and any combination of the two. Flaps also affect the trim required. On most modern aircraft the entire horizontal tail moves for this trimming action...the upshot of which is that the trim could actually have more control authority than the elevator.

In the case of a 737/767, when on approach and steady state, if you initiate a go around, and push the power to TO/GA, the underslung engines have a very strong pitch couple that will drive the nose up. You can hold the load against it, but it's used by the pilots to get the nose moving. You then push and trim forward as the nose reaches your desired target attitude.

In the event of an engine failure, you need rudder to counter the yaw, and then trim to reduce the load on your foot (to zero). Any speed or power change will require rudder and trim. You should pretty well always be able to let go of the controls for a couple of seconds, without the aircraft changing attitude.

The FBW aircraft are simultaneously better and worse. Normally the FBW removes the need for any trim inputs from the pilots, as it sees the motion caused by the out of trim condition, realises it doesn't want it, and simply moves the flight controls to counter it. So, back to that go around, and you push the power up...and if you don't pull the nose up, it will stay right where it was. You do need rudder trim in the case of an engine out. So, they are better in that trim normally doesn't exist as something you need to do.

But they are worse in that they no longer have any access to roll trim, and in many modes even pitch trim. Normally this isn't an issue, but when the aircraft revert to lower flight control laws, they may cease trimming. Pitch control is given back in direct law, but you never gain it in roll. So, if your aircraft is in some way asymmetrically loaded, or has the RAT deployed, then there may be a substantial rolling moment that can't be readily trimmed out. The flight controls themselves can also cause this by not fairing to a load neutral situation on the law change.

How is this bad? Firstly it removes trimming from the top of a pilots' head. And normally that doesn't matter, but with a law reversion it assumes its old importance. Secondly, because an out of trim aircraft can be very hard (in some cases impossible) to fly, it means that all of your attention has to be locked into flying it - look away for a few seconds, and your aircraft will have moved away from where you wanted it. This assumes even more importance in the case of some system failures. We sometimes practice running into volcanic ash, and you lose all engines. You end up with simultaneous law reversions, depressurisation, and loss of most electronics. The bloke in the left seat has to keep all attention on just flying, especially as the now deployed RAT will be trying to make the aircraft roll left. If you make the mistake of watching the other guy in his attempts to manage the failures you can make the situation much worse.
 
Just an observation that aircraft hangars, of whatever sizes, mostly appear open most of the times. Few questions of interest:

What's the clearance in height and also width?

Are most of the doors sliding or open in as garage doors for motor vehicles do?
 
Just an observation that aircraft hangars, of whatever sizes, mostly appear open most of the times. Few questions of interest:

What's the clearance in height and also width?

No set answer to that. It's really a case of whatever the owner of the aircraft, and hangar, are prepared to accept. Many hangars have so little clearance that the aircraft must be aligned perfectly, and cannot be turned at all before being totally outside. And often they actually have openings, so the aircraft tails extend outdoors.

Are most of the doors sliding or open in as garage doors for motor vehicles do?

I've never seen one that was other than a sectional horizontally sliding door.
 
Are most of the doors sliding or open in as garage doors for motor vehicles do?

Do an image search on the internet for "hangar doors" and you'll find all manner of sliding, folding and rolling hangar doors. Roller doors are not commonly used for hangars because they tend to buckle in the wind where there is a wide span. You can enhance rigidity by installing removable mullions but they make it a hassle to open and close the doors.
 
Do you know if VH-OQA post repair requires more than the usual auto inputs to achieve trim

I had a chat to one of the engineers involved in Nancy's repair. Basically she was taken back to manufacturing junctions, and then new parts were inserted. So, no repairs as such, just replacement parts. The incident itself wasn't the sort of thing that bends aircraft. Looking at her flight control page in flight, all of the controls are faired to zero within the limits of the displays. So basically she's as straight as she ever was.
 
Do an image search on the internet for "hangar doors" and you'll find all manner of sliding, folding and rolling hangar doors.

I did think of that before I posted, but I was only thinking of large airliners. Even then, there are some alternatives, but they're rare.
 
I The incident itself wasn't the sort of thing that bends aircraft.

After repair Nancy was a bit heavier. As the repair was mainly on one wing +\- the replacements of the cracked ribs, did most of the extra weight go into the left wing?

Any bent aircraft you know currently still in service?
 
Mode 4...essentially arrivals on 34L and departures on 16L...They only do it in low wind on clear days from my experience. I have personally never had an issue with it...The biggest issue might just be the passengers looking out the window and seeing a plane go by in the opposite direction!

Thank you Boris spatsky (who has one of the most amusing - and apt - nom de plumes on AFF).

A very clear explanation. Another esteemed contributor did however call it 'dangerous', so there you go.
 
Thanks JB for the epic answer to 'trim' :)

What's happening in the big jets (might be others but I've noticed it in A380 and B747) with the shuddering or vibration just after rotation/takeoff?
 
Sponsored Post

Struggling to use your Frequent Flyer Points?

Frequent Flyer Concierge takes the hard work out of finding award availability and redeeming your frequent flyer or credit card points for flights.

Using their expert knowledge and specialised tools, the Frequent Flyer Concierge team at Frequent Flyer Concierge will help you book a great trip that maximises the value for your points.

After repair Nancy was a bit heavier. As the repair was mainly on one wing +\- the replacements of the cracked ribs, did most of the extra weight go into the left wing?

What extra weight was that? Her weight changed by about 75kgs, which is within the margin of error. She is lighter than B, and within a kg of C.

Any bent aircraft you know currently still in service?

Just about all aircraft are bent. The most bent that I've ever seen were the RAAF CT4 and Macchis, but then they'd had a pretty hard life. I used to do the low level display in the CT4, and I used only a small group of aircraft for the displays, as some had less predictable characteristics than others. Perhaps contrary to expectation, OJH was especially straight.
 
Thanks JB for the epic answer to 'trim' :)

What's happening in the big jets (might be others but I've noticed it in A380 and B747) with the shuddering or vibration just after rotation/takeoff?

There's probably a couple of things in play. First part of it is likely to be an unbalanced and suddenly unloaded tyre. Then braking is applied to the main gear during retraction, so you may feel that. And the nose gear isn't braked, but is ultimately stopped by a 'snubber' (i.e. friction), so you can feel that too.
 
A very clear explanation. Another esteemed contributor did however call it 'dangerous', so there you go.

Opinions will differ based on individual experience. I've had two TCAS RA's from this procedure (one in Sydney and one in LA). That resulted in one go around.
 
ILooking at her flight control page in flight, all of the controls are faired to zero within the limits of the displays. So basically she's as straight as she ever was.
Wish we had that info in cars. Might be able to detect a rebirthed one...

:cool:
 
At the times I have travelled on a B777 especially near the back I have been conscious a twisting and shuddering of the fuselage at takeoff. What happens is that the pilot lines up at the biginning of the runway and immediately sets the taps wide open, there is no easing of the aircraft away from a stationary position before applying full takeoff power. Now the engines on a tripple 7 are immensely powerful (big aircraft and only two engines) and so I get concerned at the very high instantaneous loading of the wing, and the engine pylons and until the aircraft starts moving the application of this power results in quite severe lateral movement and shuddering of the tail
Surely this is not good practice, and it must place an unnecessary strain on the aircraft. Would it not be better to match the increase in power setting to the increase in forward motion of the plane?
 
At the times I have travelled on a B777 especially near the back I have been conscious a twisting and shuddering of the fuselage at takeoff. What happens is that the pilot lines up at the biginning of the runway and immediately sets the taps wide open, there is no easing of the aircraft away from a stationary position before applying full takeoff power. Now the engines on a tripple 7 are immensely powerful (big aircraft and only two engines) and so I get concerned at the very high instantaneous loading of the wing, and the engine pylons and until the aircraft starts moving the application of this power results in quite severe lateral movement and shuddering of the tail
Surely this is not good practice, and it must place an unnecessary strain on the aircraft. Would it not be better to match the increase in power setting to the increase in forward motion of the plane?

The engines aren't immediately 'set wide open'. Different aircraft and engines will manage this slightly differently, but:

1. As you line up you push the power up to about 25-30%. You stop there until all of the engines are matching.
2. You push the levers all the way to TO/GA (or FLEX), or in Boeing, push the TO/GA switches.
3. The FADECS take over control of the engines, and run through a programmed ramp up of power. In the A380, it advances to about 70% until 70 knots, and then the remainder.

The shuddering of the tail is normal. It, is after all, pretty much in the exhaust flow.

Once away from the idle position, the engines will ramp up very rapidly. They are designed to do this. Taking too long to set the power upsets all of the take off calculations...i.e. it wastes runway.

The vast majority of take offs have some level of derate. Power may be as low as around 66%. TO/GA would probably be less than 10% of the take offs that I do.
 
The Frequent Flyer Concierge team takes the hard work out of finding reward seat availability. Using their expert knowledge and specialised tools, they'll help you book a great trip that maximises the value for your points.

AFF Supporters can remove this and all advertisements

At HBA there is frequently an airport vehicle driving down the runway between flights. Its seen 'all the time' and I believe it goes out either after every couple of aircraft movements or on a fixed schedule through the day. I imagine it's inspecting the runway for debris.

Are other Australian airports subject to this sort of inspection regime (ie multiple times through the day)?

HBA doesn't have air bridges and boarding is done via up to +100m tarmac walkways and it does bit windy! I wonder if the risk of paper etc escaping from the clutches of pax may be the reason for the frequent inspections, or perhaps the surface of HBA has been rated at being at risk of (small) crumbling requiring surface inspections? HBA also doesn't have an occupied control tower.
 
At HBA there is frequently an airport vehicle driving down the runway between flights. Its seen 'all the time' and I believe it goes out either after every couple of aircraft movements or on a fixed schedule through the day. I imagine it's inspecting the runway for debris. Are other Australian airports subject to this sort of inspection regime (ie multiple times through the day)?
Yes, all controlled airports in Australia have Airport Operations Safety vehicles. These are the guys that remove bird carcasses from the runway when you hit one, work out your visibility in low vis ops at the smaller airports (including Canberra) down the runway, and escort workers and other vehicles across active taxiways/runways.

HBA also doesn't have an occupied control tower.
Ummm, yes it does...
 

Enhance your AFF viewing experience!!

From just $6 we'll remove all advertisements so that you can enjoy a cleaner and uninterupted viewing experience.

And you'll be supporting us so that we can continue to provide this valuable resource :)


Sample AFF with no advertisements? More..

Recent Posts

Back
Top