Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

The saying is certainly eight hours bottle to throttle but it's just that... A saying. Definitely not a rule these days and anyone (pilots, controllers etc.) that took it as such would be a goose.

These days we are subject to blood alcohol limits. They're effectively zero. The regulatory bodies around the world do randomly check, as to the companies.

I think the saying was "no smoking within 8 hours, and no drinking within 50 feet".

 

[jb747]

Is AVV still used for touch and go training and is it normal for Australian airlines to take a big trainee group, such as this incident ?

Accident: Monarch A320 at Prestwick on Apr 10th 2013, rejected touch and go fails shock absorbers, autoflight and flight directors

As far as I know, QF discontinued base training the better part of 20 years ago for most aircraft. It was worthwhile, as it gave a degree of confidence that the simulators, no matter how good, don't. But, it was inordinately expensive for that small gain.

Back in 1988 I did 5 hours of base training in the 747. That was down to 45 minutes in the 767. Nothing in the 747-400 or 380.

The reference you've given makes interesting reading....

 

[OzEire]

I had an interesting one today that prompts a question...

In the 60 seconds before turning to line up with SYD runway 34L, my QF B717 was almost at right angles to the runway flying north. Out my window I was watching an NZ A321 lining up for 34R.

The NZ aircraft stayed in the one spot in my window, just rapidly growing larger until we turned to line up.

My question is about TCAS, if either aircraft carries it - I presume both do.

Would this cause a Traffic Advisory (or even Resolution) before the turn?

I would think it could get annoying having TCAS going off in that busy phase but you wouldn't want to switch it off or learn to tune it out completely?

 

[jb747]

I had an interesting one today that prompts a question...

In the 60 seconds before turning to line up with SYD runway 34L, my QF B717 was almost at right angles to the runway flying north. Out my window I was watching an NZ A321 lining up for 34R.

The NZ aircraft stayed in the one spot in my window, just rapidly growing larger until we turned to line up.

My question is about TCAS, if either aircraft carries it - I presume both do.

Would this cause a Traffic Advisory (or even Resolution) before the turn?

I would think it could get annoying having TCAS going off in that busy phase but you wouldn't want to switch it off or learn to tune it out completely?

TCAS has become smarter since it was originally introduced, and false/premature alarms are now much less common. I did have an RA on that runway pair back in its (TCAS) early days, but I haven't heard a peep from it since.

I think you'll find that ATC apply a small amount of altitude separation to aircraft on the adjoining runways until established on finals, so whilst it might look interesting out the window, it's less so when you have access to all the numbers.

Perhaps Markis can explain the procedures.

 

[Himeno]

On the topic of TCAS...
Is it all automatic (alarm ranges etc) or can you change the settings?
How does it work out which aircraft takes what action for resolution?
Does it issue alerts while in high traffic areas (eg, morning holds around LHR)?

 

[markis10]

TCAS has become smarter since it was originally introduced, and false/premature alarms are now much less common. I did have an RA on that runway pair back in its (TCAS) early days, but I haven't heard a peep from it since.

I think you'll find that ATC apply a small amount of altitude separation to aircraft on the adjoining runways until established on finals, so whilst it might look interesting out the window, it's less so when you have access to all the numbers.

Perhaps Markis can explain the procedures.

Simops off parallel runways are one of the safest types of separation possible, essentially the aircraft are at their closest on the runaway, the rules require 210m between centrelines, to ensure separation after takeoff usually one aircraft will be on a SID that increases the lateral separation between aircraft. The departure from 34R is likely going to track over Coogee before setting course.

The biggest risk for the aircraft departing on 34 is not the aircraft on the other 34 runway but traffic on descent making an approach to the various downwind circuits for each runway. I was joining downwind for 34R abeam bondi last Monday when we had a QF 738 pass under us tracking east, it was visually quite interesting but perfectly safe with vertical separation.

 

[jb747]

On the topic of TCAS...
Is it all automatic (alarm ranges etc) or can you change the settings?
How does it work out which aircraft takes what action for resolution?
Does it issue alerts while in high traffic areas (eg, morning holds around LHR)?

TCAS is one of the great inventions of aviation. It is very simple to work with, is easy to understand, and as far as I know has never failed as long as the instructions were actually followed.

The pilots just turn it on or off. Whilst we can change the displayed aircraft (i.e. looking above or below), we can't change anything about how it operates. When both aircraft are fitted with it, the systems will coordinate their response, so that both crews will be given the appropriate solutions for their aircraft. It may actually decide to take aircraft through the same level (if high rates of climb or descent are involved). It can handle multiple targets, so that if the response causes a second issue, it will come up with another solution in turn. Looking at it in the sim, as it threads the needle between multiple contacts is interesting, to say the least.

In a busy hold, it simply shows the other aircraft...I've never heard a peep out of it in that scenario. Rates of descent are low, so even with the close spacing, it won't see a false threat.

If only one aircraft has TCAS, it will simply respond to whatever it sees.

All solutions are in the vertical plane...it never looks at turns.

Whilst I've heard that some aircraft have autopilot responses to an RA, most are manual. The inputs required are quite gentle, and should not be an issue for unrestrained passengers.

 

[day-heg]

I don't know of any jet RPT airlines in our region who train on the aircraft anymore. With Level D simulators, there really is no need to. ANA used to do it at Avalon but as far as i know, that ceased around 2001.

I don't understand why Monarch do it - expensive way of utilising the aircraft (high cycles, nil revenue).

As far as I know, QF discontinued base training the better part of 20 years ago for most aircraft. It was worthwhile, as it gave a degree of confidence that the simulators, no matter how good, don't. But, it was inordinately expensive for that small gain.

Back in 1988 I did 5 hours of base training in the 747. That was down to 45 minutes in the 767. Nothing in the 747-400 or 380.

Companies such as Monarch, along with EasyJet, Qatar, JetStar Asia, Etihad, Lufthansa and British Airways (not an exhaustive list) take on low hour 'ab-initio' cadets as First Officers, either through traditional CPL & IR training, or through an MPL program. Either way, cadets finish training and join an airline with a type rating but no experience in the actual aircraft on which they have qualified.

Before they can go on the line, most of these companies require the guys/girls to do a few circuits, landings, etc to understand some of the subtle differences between the Level D sims and the real thing. I believe these are done with a handful of cadets and a few training Captains, ie exactly as described in the AVHerald article.

Certainly for BA (not sure about the others), passing this phase means then performing their first 40 revenue sectors with a training captain and I think an observer, before a line check, and then being 'released' onto the line with normal rostering and regular captains.

I'd be surprised if the Virgin Australia cadets wouldn't need to something similar towards the end of their course, I remember one of their ATRs was observed doing multiple circuits somewhere (maybe Hamilton Island) a while back.

 

[OzEire]

Thanks for the replies.

I did not realise TCAS was all in the vertical plane, or that ATC slightly offset approaches on parallel runways (i thought it was based on glideslope).

Exactly why I love this topic. Thanks again.

 

[markis10]

ATC will never have aircraft head to head on base legs of Simops, in this scenario the JQ flight has 1000 ft over the QF making an approach to 34L.

 

[mjt57]

JB, fog. What's the go with Melbourne airport and fog? Fog today is supposedly causing problems, presumably that MEL doesn't have full Cat III services? However, how does this go for departures?

Whilst it may not be a problem Friday if the forecast is any guide, if it does get foggy (our flight departs at 0600), if we're delayed we'll miss out flight out of BNE - LAX...

 

[hummel]

JB, fog. What's the go with Melbourne airport and fog? Fog today is supposedly causing problems, presumably that MEL doesn't have full Cat III services? However, how does this go for departures?

Whilst it may not be a problem Friday if the forecast is any guide, if it does get foggy (our flight departs at 0600), if we're delayed we'll miss out flight out of BNE - LAX...

I can't answer your question but if I'm doing an international flight our of say SYD around 10am... I always catch a flight up the night before. Therefore no risk and best of all... no stress.

 

[mjt57]

I can't answer your question but if I'm doing an international flight our of say SYD around 10am... I always catch a flight up the night before. Therefore no risk and best of all... no stress.

That may be so, but it's not what we're doing. Work schedules have prevented us from doing this. The idea of getting up at 4am to begin our journey doesn't enthrall me, hence why we're domestic to BNE then international from there.

 

[jb747]

JB, fog. What's the go with Melbourne airport and fog? Fog today is supposedly causing problems, presumably that MEL doesn't have full Cat III services? However, how does this go for departures?

Whilst it may not be a problem Friday if the forecast is any guide, if it does get foggy (our flight departs at 0600), if we're delayed we'll miss out flight out of BNE - LAX...

In theory Melbourne has Catt IIIB available on 16, though I don't have a set of NOTAMs with me right now, so I don't know if it's currently available. There wasn't an issue last time I flew there.

But, it's not just the airfield that you have to worry about. Plonking a decent ILS (or GLS) installation onto an airfield only means that it will be available to those aircraft and pilots qualified to use it, and even then the minima can differ from aircraft to aircraft. For instance, the visibility requirement for QF's 330/380 is less than that required for the 767/747...and on my charts the 737s are not even listed. There are extensive ongoing training requirements, and it is quite conceivable that an airline could do the maths and decide that they are not cost effective.

Take off is also effected, with vis requirements that are longer than needed to land (because landings and rollout are automatic, whereas take off is not, and you also have to consider the engine failure scenario). Beyond that, it slows everything dramatically, so even if the airport is operating, taxiing around takes forever, and then, of course, the queues build up.

I would move heaven and earth to go up the night before. If fog is present, you can pretty much kiss any connection goodbye.

 

[mjt57]

Thanks JB.

Hopefully it won't be an issue.

Melbourne Forecast

I didn't make the bookings, unfortunately. And as I wrote above, work and other commitments prevented us from doing this. Next time, if we have to get connecting flights overseas, we'll do that.

Edit: when the bookings were made we were under the impression that it wasn't a "connecting" flight. Rather, jump on the B777 at MEL, then get off at Brissy for a smoke, then back on for the ride across the pond...

But the tickets are for MEL-BNE-LAX-JFK, so if we do miss our connections, the airline will need to accommodate us (hopefully). My fear, other than the wasted time is that we'll most likely lose our good seats.

 

[hummel]

Wish you all the luck mjt57! I even had containers delayed out of port because of fog this morning!

 

[jb747]

This is the forecast I'd be using, the Bureau's aviation forecast. It's showing a 30% chance of fog, for basically the entire night and early part of the morning. 500m vis isn't too bad, and is well above the take off minima.

TAF AMD YMML 220519Z 2206/2312
VRB05KT 9000 HZ FEW012
BECMG 2208/2210 01005KT 6000 HZ SCT008
BECMG 2223/2224 01012KT CAVOK
PROB30 2210/2223 0500 FG
RMK
T 10 07 05 04 Q 1024 1024 1025 1024

 

[mjt57]

TAF AMD YMML 220519Z 2206/2312
VRB05KT 9000 HZ FEW012
BECMG 2208/2210 01005KT 6000 HZ SCT008
BECMG 2223/2224 01012KT CAVOK
PROB30 2210/2223 0500 FG
RMK
T 10 07 05 04 Q 1024 1024 1025 1024

Thank god that you can understand the above.

I take it that you were an Egyptian in a previous life, or Sumerian perhaps?

 

[jb747]

Thank god that you can understand the above.

I take it that you were an Egyptian in a previous life, or Sumerian perhaps?

Terminal area forecast, amended, Melbourne. Issued at 220519Z, for the period 2206/2312
Wind variable at 5 knots, 9000 metres vis, haze, few cloud at 1200 feet,
Becoming from 2208 to 2210 wind 010 at 5 knots, 6000 metres vis haze, scattered cloud at 800 feet
Becoming from 2223 to 2224 wind 010 at 12 knots, ceiling and visibility ok
Probability 30% between 2210 to 2223 visibility 500 metres in fog
Remark
temperature 10, 7, 5, 4 and qnh 1024, 1024, 1025, 1024

 

[markis10]

The period is DDHH in UTC.