Alan Joyce confirms 9 across Y for QF 787

[sydks]

According to an Ausbt article here Alan Joyce has confirmed the QF Y cabin will be 9 across in 3-3-3 config

"There will be a big business class and a big premium economy cabin", and while the economy seats will be nine-across in a 3-3-3 arrangement, Joyce promises "we will be giving some very good seat pitch for economy seats given the the lengths we’ll be flying."

While this was always likely, still super disappointing to see it confirmed and to think of the torture of spending 18/19 hours in that config on some of those ultra long haul routes being talked about!

Was also hopeful even if they did go 9 across that they might do something interesting like 2-4-3 which I think is at least a more customer friendly config for most in the cabin.

Could this leave the possibility open of them having a few rows of Economy plus style seating (separate from and in addition to Premium Economy), that has same economy service but with wider seats in 2-4-2 config that they could charge for during seat selection (like they currently do for exit rows)? A back of the envelope calculation says to me if you take an average $2000 return Y airfare, you would only need to charge $125 per seat per flight to recoup the cost of the lost seat in a row. They currently charge $180 for international exit row seating, so if they charged similar for this economy plus style seating they should actually be able to make a bit of profit out of a few rows of 2-4-2, and attract a new market of people who just want a bit more space and comfort (and wouldn't fly a 9 across 787) but won't pay the considerable fare hike to Premium Economy.

 

[njba]

Oh, Alan. No, Alan. Oh, Alan.

 

[Cool Cat Phil]

My "back of envelope" calculation is 8 abreast forfeits a conservative $25,000 AUD in revenue per mid- haul sector, so the economic reality for the overwhelming majority of carriers to be configured with 9 abreast makes economic sense.

What do people think of the Space Suite idea?

Qantas Boeing 787 economy seat layout Thompson Aero Cozy Suite - Australian Business Traveller

Could this concept work?

 

[moa999]

As was expected and very obvious with every other airlines choice.
I can't see QF gambling with the CozySuite

I'd expect standard Y seats with maybe a 33" pitch (10% better than JQ at 30")

 

[dajop]

My "back of envelope" calculation is 8 abreast forfeits a conservative $25,000 AUD in revenue per mid- haul sector, so the economic reality for the overwhelming majority of carriers to be configured with 9 abreast makes economic sense.

I guess it depends on relative sizes of J & Y+ cabins. But based in typical config (<NZ but >> BA), 25 seats @ $1000/sector? So based on all-in ticket price of around ~$2100-2200 return.

 

[Cool Cat Phil]

I guess it depends on relative sizes of J & Y+ cabins. But based in typical config (<NZ but >> BA), 25 seats @ $1000/sector? So based on all-in ticket price of around ~$2100-2200 return.

Yes, Calculations fluctuate depending on route yield and the actual number of rows Y actually is configured with.
Its obvious 8 abreast is a loss of income from selling additional seats.

 

[JohnK]

Couldn't care less what's in the premium cabins. Majority of the passengers down the back.

Doesn't sound like 9 abreast is a smart move for an airline that will operate aircraft with this config on most long haul flights. Can get extremely uncomfortable.

 

[dajop]

Its obvious 8 abreast is a loss of income from selling additional seats.

Unless of course you have a sufficiently educated market that will pay a premium for 8 abreast, on 25 rows, that would be I guess somewhere in the order of $125 a seat , or $250 on a return basis - perhaps slightly less to account for carrying ~2 tonnes less SLF and less catering. Difficult to recoup that amount in a very competitive environment.

 

[N860CR]

Couldn't care less what's in the premium cabins. Majority of the passengers down the back.

Doesn't sound like 9 abreast is a smart move for an airline that will operate aircraft with this config on most long haul flights. Can get extremely uncomfortable.

Unfortunately the value that matters is in the front. Just have to look at the ANA config to see where the money is.

Ultimately, the pax in the back are price sensitive and will likely have absolutely no idea how the cabin is setup until they're sitting in it.

 

[DavidFlynn]

I never expected anything but 3-3-3 on the Qantas 787-9, and I don't understand why anybody else would, either – as far as I know, the only 787s which saw a lesser config were those run by Japanese airlines on domestic routes (domestic config vs international config).

A lot of pundits make a lot of noise about supposedly educated passengers choosing not to fly a 3-3-3 config, as if they will walk away in droves. IMHO, they won't. Just remember, we here are not even the 1%, we're maybe the 0.000001%.

The punters? They'll pay for their cheap ticket, have a grizzle and a grumble – although less than normal, if Qantas deliver an extra bit of legroom – then get off the plane at the other end, same time as those in J but having paid a fraction of the price and being worse for wear, and get on with their holiday.

 

[Pleb Status]

I never expected anything but 3-3-3 on the Qantas 787-9, and I don't understand why anybody else would, either – as far as I know, the only 787s which saw a lesser config were those run by Japanese airlines on domestic routes (domestic config vs international config).

A lot of pundits make a lot of noise about supposedly educated passengers choosing not to fly a 3-3-3 config, as if they will walk away in droves. IMHO, they won't. Just remember, we here are not even the 1%, we're maybe the 0.000001%.

The punters? They'll pay for their cheap ticket, have a grizzle and a grumble – although less than normal, if Qantas deliver an extra bit of legroom – then get off the plane at the other end, same time as those in J but having paid a fraction of the price and being worse for wear, and get on with their holiday.

Argeed that 3-3-3 was always going to be adopted by QF.

The question of interest is what is a 'very good' seat pitch in Y? I would think a minimum of 34 inches is 'very good'. A 'good' seat pitch is 33 inches, an 'average' seat pitch is 32 inches and 31 inches and below is 'poor' and then 'very poor'.

 

[DavidFlynn]

The question of interest is what is a 'very good' seat pitch in Y? I would think a minimum of 34 inches is 'very good'. A 'good' seat pitch is 33 inches, an 'average' seat pitch is 32 inches and 31 inches and below is 'poor' and then 'very poor'.

Given that Y+ (on the A380) is 38 inches, yeah, I'd think 34 inches for 787 Y would do very nicely.

 

[Pleb Status]

With the rumoured 42J/28W/165Y seat layout, looks like the density should be similar to NH, which has 31 inch Y and 3-3-3.

SeatGuru Seat Map ANA Boeing 787-9 (789) V1 International

 

[juddles]

...what is a 'very good' seat pitch in Y? I would think a minimum of 34 inches is 'very good'....

If an airline uses the words "very good" it means that they either will match their competitors, or maybe one extra inch. If they were going to beat the others in Y by two or more inches they would be describing it with far more powerful and flowery expressions.

Quick check of best 787 Y seat pitch currently for a few airlines: (best is as in some airlines have dif config within their own fleet)

33" - JAL

32" - LAN, Avianca, Ethiopian

31" - Qatar, Etihad, American, ANA

This is just a quick look, but it leads me to suspect that QF could justify the expression "very good" with a 32" pitch.

I am hopeful for 33" (eternal optimist), but 34" is Dreamliner dreaming

 

[DavidFlynn]

I am hopeful for 33" (eternal optimist), but 34" is Dreamliner dreaming

LOL! The thing is, too, with modern materials and good design you can get a 33" pitch and also create a little extra room around the knees (where it's often most needed) to make it feel even more spacious.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

I mocked up a couple of economy seat designs which both address legroom, knee space and quad pain which tall people experience frequently. Anyone know how to go about showing someone without losing the ip?

 

[Pleb Status]

This is just a quick look, but it leads me to suspect that QF could justify the expression "very good" with a 32" pitch.

I am hopeful for 33" (eternal optimist), but 34" is Dreamliner dreaming

If I was to put money on it, I would be betting on 32 inches, but only a marketing person would describe that as 'very good'.

 

[vetrade]

I mocked up a couple of economy seat designs which both address legroom, knee space and quad pain which tall people experience frequently. Anyone know how to go about showing someone without losing the ip?

See a patent lawyer. Don't rely on just a confidentiality agreement.

 

[Cool Cat Phil]

I never expected anything but 3-3-3 on the Qantas 787-9, and I don't understand why anybody else would, either – as far as I know, the only 787s which saw a lesser config were those run by Japanese airlines on domestic routes (domestic config vs international config).

A lot of pundits make a lot of noise about supposedly educated passengers choosing not to fly a 3-3-3 config, as if they will walk away in droves. IMHO, they won't. Just remember, we here are not even the 1%, we're maybe the 0.000001%.

The punters? They'll pay for their cheap ticket, have a grizzle and a grumble – although less than normal, if Qantas deliver an extra bit of legroom – then get off the plane at the other end, same time as those in J but having paid a fraction of the price and being worse for wear, and get on with their holiday.

^ I totally agree with your assessment and couldn't have put it better myself.

"Educated Passengers" will more than likely focus on seat pitch and price over the number of seats abreast.

 

[BD1959]

Quick check of best 787 Y seat pitch currently for a few airlines: (best is as in some airlines have dif config within their own fleet)

33" - JAL

32" - LAN, Avianca, Ethiopian

31" - Qatar, Etihad, American, ANA

On that - coupled with QF's historic use of the phrase "World's best practice" (meaning "most popular race to the bottom") - we'll see 31".

Regards,

BD