Air India B787 crash Ahmedabad

[Saab34]

Boeing are still quiet on this one. I have no doubt that designers, engineers in Seattle would have a list of scenarios regarding how this would occur.

I was having a read of the Jetstar 787 incident into Osaka, which made me realise how something so minor underneath can cause such a big issue. Which also indicates this might drag on for a bit considering the aircraft is one giant mess.

 

[RSD]

Boeing are still quiet on this one. I have no doubt that designers, engineers in Seattle would have a list of scenarios regarding how this would occur.

I was having a read of the Jetstar 787 incident into Osaka, which made me realise how something so minor underneath can cause such a big issue. Which also indicates this might drag on for a bit considering the aircraft is one giant mess.

I'm wondering if whatever caused the engines to both shut down is something that has been engineered in (either mechanically or software) to enable a box about something different on a risk assessment to be ticked...

 

[Rabs97]

Investigators are now looking further into a fuel contamination incident involving an A321 in the UK in 2020. All rather strange.

The Aviation Herald

Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

avherald.com

The AvHerald is really falling in the integrity stakes with their reporting on this incident. A few days ago they quoted a pilot trained by the accident Captain who claimed the CVR had exonerated the crew from blame, before the CVR data has even been recovered.

Now this fuel contamination theory, which I tracked down to an anonymous random AI employee quoted by the Indian equivalent of the Daily Mail, who seems to think that because the previous fuel contamination incident happened in the UK the fact the UK has sent investigators to India to assist the Indian air accident investigation is “proof” that the two incidents are linked.

With regards to the Titan A321 contamination incident, caused by overuse of biocide, the engine didn’t just “flameout” suddenly, it had been showing signs of damage, failed starts, surging and stalls for a time before the incident flight.

The same can be applied to the post about the fuel shutoff valve failing closed with a total electrical loss. You can purport to be whatever you want in a YouTube comments section and post a theory that can fool people who don’t know better into believing this fantastical one in a billion probability theory happened (although posts on other forums say this type of action of the fuel shutoff is impossible). It’s a shame to see so called “professional” pilots with a YouTube account amplifying these outlandish theories for the sole purpose of clicks.

Real accident investigators aren’t trolling the YouTube comments section. To be honest I think when the actual facts emerge the prime cause will be something of a common error, simple but something none of the YouTube “experts” have speculated about.

 

[Rabs97]

I'm wondering if whatever caused the engines to both shut down is something that has been engineered in (either mechanically or software) to enable a box about something different on a risk assessment to be ticked...

In terms of the proportion of accidents that can be put down to a bad design - very few. The MAX incidents, the 737 rudder hardcovers in the 90s, the Comet. The rest come down to operated error, human error and poor standards and procedures.

 

[dajop]

You'd be amazed at how many people, with only the tiniest bit of actual aviation knowledge, think they can judge pilots.

In the area I work, it seems everyone who has an opinion will tell you they know better than any of the experts. But I guess that's modern society for you. Expertise is less respected and less important than a big ego with an opinion.

But thank you for your contribution to this thread - a voice of reason (not that I’ve looked at any other references. Hyperbole turns me off). Perhaps it's the nature of contributors to AFF or merely a cultural difference between this and other places on the internet aviation is discussed.

 

[Forg]

In the area I work, it seems everyone who has an opinion will tell you they know better than any of the experts. But I guess that's modern society for you. Expertise is less respected and less important than a big ego with an opinion.

But thank you for your contribution to this thread - a voice of reason (not that I’ve looked at any other references. Hyperbole turns me off). Perhaps it's the nature of contributors to AFF or merely a cultural difference between this and other places on the internet aviation is discussed.

It’s the same with anything really … those shootings in the Lindt shop in Sydney, suddenly half the population was an expert on how to stop armed criminals with hostages. Israel - everyone’s an expert. Even that Fischer-Price Titanic-viewing sub.

 

[RSD]

It’s the same with anything really … those shootings in the Lindt shop in Sydney, suddenly half the population was an expert on how to stop armed criminals with hostages. Israel - everyone’s an expert. Even that Fischer-Price Titanic-viewing sub.

Not forgetting COVID where everyone suddenly became an infectious disease expert overnight.

 

[Rabs97]

In the area I work, it seems everyone who has an opinion will tell you they know better than any of the experts. But I guess that's modern society for you. Expertise is less respected and less important than a big ego with an opinion.

Dunning Kruger effect. I’ve had MS Flight Sim enthusiasts, private pilots, non airline pilots try to lecture me about airline stuff. Having a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous because “you don’t know what you don’t know”, you haven’t had the benefit of years of wisdom and guidance from professionals rather than just watching YouTube videos and thinking you know it all (and knowing a lot of people who work in medicine the DK effect is not exclusive to aviation).

But what I am disappointed with is the number of YouTube pilots, purportedly professional airline pilots, who’ve jumped on this bandwagon in order for clicks and ad revenue. To me they are the ones who are disgracing themselves and the profession by being as speculative as a tabloid journo.

 

[flyer89]

The AvHerald is really falling in the integrity stakes with their reporting on this incident. A few days ago they quoted a pilot trained by the accident Captain who claimed the CVR had exonerated the crew from blame, before the CVR data has even been recovered.

I’m struggling to track any of them. The mayday call is also apparently bogus and there was no additional dialogue.

 

[jb747]

- have you seen this video - it and the first 20 or so comments could be narrowing in on the cause - Video about FSOV

It's interesting, though his presentation has reached the breathless level.

Boeing are still quiet on this one. I have no doubt that designers, engineers in Seattle would have a list of scenarios regarding how this would occur.

My fear would actually be that they don't. Basically a tree of possibilities with a branch missing.

But what I am disappointed with is the number of YouTube pilots, purportedly professional airline pilots, who’ve jumped on this bandwagon in order for clicks and ad revenue. To me they are the ones who are disgracing themselves and the profession by being as speculative as a tabloid journo.

I'm finding it odd that they're going to the conclusion stage, though I have no objection to being given possible paths. Cap'n Steve has given us pilot error, then changed his mind, and is now in the fuel issue camp. Hoover is blaming the pilots, apparently going with the theory of an engine failure, followed by shutting the wrong one down - which doesn't explain the gear, and which they simply never would have gotten to, given that Boeing don't start cleaning up issues until you reach 1,000'. And now Gary seems to be in the electrical camp. It doesn't really matter if it's a million, or billion, to one chance. Remember that this is also an older aircraft in this fleet, which may throw up other issues.

I'm wondering if whatever caused the engines to both shut down is something that has been engineered in (either mechanically or software) to enable a box about something different on a risk assessment to be ticked...

Personally I've always wondered about the software, so I think we're wondering about the same thing.

 

[Quickstatus]

In terms of the proportion of accidents that can be put down to a bad design - very few.

There have been many accidents that have resulted in component re-design

The classic 747 cargo doors is one.
747 fuel tank wiring design
Electra fuel system and tail design

There

 

[RSD]

Personally I've always wondered about the software, so I think we're wondering about the same thing.

Either something written into the software to prevent something bad happening (perhaps on the ground) - but this has led to the software shutting down the engines in a different set of (unusual) circumstances that hadn't been considered, or something mechanical like fuel flow valves being designed to shut or fail closed for good reasons - but again an unusual set of circumstances has occurred which hadn't been thought of or considered - circumstances where valves failing closed is not what is wanted in those circumstances.

Ultimately somewhere in the above there may be the answer to the question that has been in the back of everyone's minds for the last week - what could possibly cause both engines to fail (simultaneously) - the answer might well be fuel flow valves that were designed to shut if they lost power - or the engines didn't actually failed - they were stopped (or reduced to idle) by the software.

If India follows the norm and publishes an initial report after 14 days then I fear that at the moment we are unlikely to learn much from the initial report other than things that they have ruled out.

I would imagine that the 787 does a massive amount of automatic checks of the functionality of valves and a lot of other mechanical things and sensors etc during its prestart and startup checks - if so then it would be reasonable to think that whatever has failed has failed probably just after rotation rather than was something that was failed that they unknowingly left the gate with. The closed circuit rebreather that I use for deep dives runs itself through an enormous set of prestart checks when it is turned on - checks all solenoids, checks all sensors through various parts of their sensing range, checks for leaks, runs pressure checks etc etc. - takes about ten minutes but once it is done and it gives its "I'm happy" beeps then I know that I have a good unit to take diving.

 

[SYD]

There have been other accidents that have resulted in component re-design

The classic 747 cargo doors is one.

Also following TWA800 and redesign of the 747 fuels tank.

 

[Quickstatus]

following TWA800 and redesign of the 747 fuels tank.

Can't forget the 767 Lauda air uncommanded thrust reversers.
(Boeing said it was survivable so Lauda challenged Boeing to test it inflight and not in a simulator - they declined)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There have been many accidents that have resulted in component re-design

The classic 747 cargo doors is one.
747 fuel tank wiring design
Electra fuel system and tail design

There

Also DC-10 cargo doors.

 

[markis10]

The closed circuit rebreather that I use for deep dives runs itself through an enormous set of prestart checks when it is turned on - checks all solenoids, checks all sensors through various parts of their sensing range, checks for leaks, runs pressure checks etc etc. - takes about ten minutes but once it is done and it gives its "I'm happy" beeps then I know that I have a good unit to take diving.

Even then things can go wrong, as evidenced by the passing of Jamie Powell UK wreck-diving legend Jamie Powell dies

Human error is hard to prevent, and difficult to recover from when time is limited. It’s been a puzzling year as far as disasters go and their causes.

 

[RSD]

Even then things can go wrong, as evidenced by the passing of Jamie Powell UK wreck-diving legend Jamie Powell dies

Human error is hard to prevent, and difficult to recover from when time is limited. It’s been a puzzling year as far as disasters go and their causes.

A lot of unanswered questions around Jamie's death - everyone is trying to understand what has happened. I've seen the actual dived profile from his computer, the dive plan, the gas mixes etc - nothing at all in there that would be considered odd, shoulder pain just after a dive would straight away raise a suspicion of DCS, and so he was treated with oxygen on the dive boat, but you wouldn't expect a person who had shoulder pain after a perfectly normal dive profile to deteriorate badly and then pass away - normally it would be two treatments in a chamber and then six weeks without diving and then ease your way back into it.

We are all scratching our heads at the moment, and a little bit shocked. RIP Jamie - you are going to be greatly missed by all of us.

 

[drron]

A lot of unanswered questions around Jamie's death - everyone is trying to understand what has happened. I've seen the actual dived profile from his computer, the dive plan, the gas mixes etc - nothing at all in there that would be considered odd, shoulder pain just after a dive would straight away raise a suspicion of DCS, and so he was treated with oxygen on the dive boat, but you wouldn't expect a person who had shoulder pain after a perfectly normal dive profile to deteriorate badly and then pass away - normally it would be two treatments in a chamber and then six weeks without diving and then ease your way back into it.

We are all scratching our heads at the moment, and a little bit shocked. RIP Jamie - you are going to be greatly missed by all of us.

Shoulder pain can be due to many things. In a male mid 50s a heart attack is not a rare event and can present as shoulder pain. Death is a not an unusual complication. The problem is that early after a heart attack there may be no changes seen on the autopsy.

 

[RSD]

Shoulder pain can be due to many things. In a male mid 50s a heart attack is not a rare event and can present as shoulder pain. Death is a not an unusual complication. The problem is that early after a heart attack there may be no changes seen on the autopsy.

Those of us that knew Jamie well and knew how he dived etc and have seen the dive profile etc are also thinking that a medical event of some kind has happened - there doesn't seem to be anything that has gone wrong with the dive itself - the profile was a long way from the edge, and if there had of been an issue with his rebreather then he wouldn't have made it back to the boat still breathing on the rebreather.

The initial reaction of the crew and other divers on the boat thinking that this was a DCS case and treating Jamie accordingly is completely reasonable - pain in a shoulder after a dive is going to be DCS 99+% of the time. Once he was medivac'ed ashore and sent to the chamber then we would expect a diver that had completed a normal dive profile to start to be a lot better once they were recompressed but that didn't happen this time unfortunately which suggests that it wasn't DCS.

Hopefully the autopsy or other investigations will find the cause.

 

[Justinf]

I’m struggling to track any of them. The mayday call is also apparently bogus and there was no additional dialogue.

This is a totally ignorant comment by me but I would have thought issuing a mayday was the furthest thing from the flight deck’s mind in a situation like that.