The demise of the flying kangaroo?

[leadman]

After travelling for just on 30 years, I’m sadly starting topick-up a bit of an “Ansett” scent with the ol’ flying kangaroo. Sitting now inthe CX longue in BBK, watching the QF23 A330 pull up at the gate doesn’t seemto have that inspiration anymore. The NeilPerry “inspired” food, or toothbrushes and combs designed by Morrisey don’tseem to hide the smell and after recently observing the onboard sommelierspending 90% of the time with a VIP guest harks back to the Ansett days of theflying chief on the 747-300’s to HKG.
With the recent financial announcement/job losses we allhear from the analysts, on mass, but not much at all from the travellers whosebums are on those seats. It seems tobring home a lot of the observations we have all be seeing, especially afterthe much heralded QF – EK tie up which was going to bring the airline back towhat it was, fast forward 12 months and with the recent losses how bad could ithave been (or how much did it contribute? Will we ever know?)
Other things also ram it home;
- Recently opening up the Qantas inflight magazineto see the “red line” routes terminating at Dubai, with a single light onecontinuing to London. A bit of a sadview with the Jetstar routes swamping the red ones.
- Catching a QF flight which was an Emirates codesharedfrom Singapore, once a prime QF destination. I can remember as a kid watchingmy father pack into the old 707’s with his white “Jetabout” bag heading towardsthe Lion city. Now “codeshared”!
- Recently in London seeing an ad on TV forEmirates “fly to Australia” with not a mention of Qantas. (Even their websitehas little reference to QF, whereas Qantas has the “mating scene” with tail totail QF and EK).
Gut feeling is we got the wrong end of the pineapple in thedeal and we don’t seem to complain about it, but you can see some of thefallout when 2/3’s of the passengers in business class riding with Finnair beingAustralian. But of course with the demise of the Kangaroo, the big orange staris taking its place in Asia.
Am I being too pessimistic and sentimental in my old age, orjust have to face the reality that is the airline industry? But, you only haveto cast you mind back a few years to remember hearing boarding calls for Pan Am, TWA, Ansett, etc, etc......

 

[JohnK]

I believe Qantas made a major error not having at least one route go to Europe via Asia.

That is hurting them. The end of the airline? Perhaps not.

 

[Awesom Andy]

Speaking of ads, I see plenty of the "fly to AU with EK" ones, but hardly any QF ones.

And I still remember those AN 747-300's to HKG...

 

[Melburnian1]

JohnK, you are on the ball. In the past, the QF group made good profits. Take away its frequent flyer program, and today there's a lot of red ink splashing about.

It's hard to see QFi ever making a profit, but a conundrum for QF is that many of its FF members literally salivate at the prospect of redeeming their Woolworths rewards points for a return flight to LAX or LHR - preferably in business class, so to discontinue international flying would remove a major attraction to belong to the QF loyalty program. Many such aspirational passengers might not realise that depending on the route and time of year, reward seats can be extremely limited or in the hens' teeth class.

It is likely that in our population of 23 million, there are perhaps 300,000 - 400,000 very frequent to quite frequent (say at least six return trips a year: the JessicaTams, JohnK and markis10s of the world) flyers but a far larger group of occasional flyers, who travel by air once or twice a year, and fly internationally even less. So it's the decisions of the first group that count for an airline: if this group is getting jaded about the QF brand to some extent or even worse, en masse, then that's a dangerous sentiment for an airline that is losing bucketloads of money each week, as QFi in particular is (mind you, VA overall and QFd are also nothing financially to write home about at present).

 

[Ansett]

Speaking of ads, I see plenty of the "fly to AU with EK" ones, but hardly any QF ones.

And I still remember those AN 747-300's to HKG...

Thought they were 400s ex Singapore Airlines????

 

[dajop]

Speaking of ads, I see plenty of the "fly to AU with EK" ones, but hardly any QF ones.

They spend the marketing budget on bringing US television shows to Sydney for filming.

 

[Ansett]

I stand corrected seems it was a mixed bag of 3s and 4s

Page 1/1

MSN LN Type Active from to Registration Remark 23026 580 747-312 28/08/1994 15/09/1999 VH-INH To Singapore Airlines as 9V-SKA 23028 584 747-312 04/11/1995 23/12/1998 VH-INK To WTC as N117KC 23029 590 747-312 29/08/1994 11/08/1999 VH-INJ To Singapore Airlines as 9V-SKD 23033 609 747-312 16/03/1997 21/09/1998 N122KH To Singapore Airlines as 9V-SKH 23243 612 747-312 15/09/1996 31/12/1997 N123KJ To Singapore Airlines as N123KJ 24062 722 747-412 08/08/1999 09/11/2001 VH-ANA To Singapore Airlines as VH-ANA 24064 755 747-412 14/09/1999 06/11/2001 VH-ANB To Singapore Airlines as 9V-SMD

 

[Buzzard]

Only 300,000 to 400,000 pax that fly at least 6 return trips per year ?

 

[Trakman]

I must say that all any comparison with Qantas and Ansett is way off line. Ansett was financially run into the ground for a number of reasons, and there are some great books on the subject that are worth reading. None of that applies to Qantas - it has plenty of cash in hand and a solid future cash flow.

I lived through the Ansett crash and lost half a million FF points in the process. Towards the end it was characterised by increasing unreliability of its planes and poor maintenance. The thing that I noticed most was that it was hard to get any headphones to work - it was obviously a soft maintenance item and they couldn't afford (or couldn't be bothered) to get them working. They simply ran out of cash and ended up having to close the doors because their owners (Air NZ) refused to top it up anymore.

Qantas management is certainly subject to criticism for generating such a large loss, and I don't agree with a lot of their strategies. I travel mainly with CX for logistical (and pricing) reasons, but I do not see any warning signs in the dealings I do have with Qantas. I have a million QF points, and despite my Ansett experience I do not see that they are in peril. Sure they may be diluted over time, but I am not concerned about them being lost.

Qantas suffers from unrealistic expectations from Australians who want it to deliver a full range product at a LCC price, and to service all locations across the country. It can't be done. However it can do financially better than it is doing now, and you only need to look at CX to see how a purely private enterprise airline can still be profitable. Though they don't have to deal with nationalistic expectations....

 

[leadman]

I'm not saying there is a direct link with the Ansett debacle, (and I lost 1,500,000 points), but there is just that feeling of change there I am really uncomfortable with. I had a recent experience where I was contacted by Qantas in September that after speaking to a QF stewardess that I switch to Star Alliance for 6 months to gain gold status as QF offers nothing more for people who travel to multiple Asian routes now, as P1 is really designed for the LHR or LAX travellers. The reply was "your choice" and without any attempt to keep you with them it was "good luck". To walk away from business, to me, is staggering!!!

 

[leadman]

Good work, but always remember catching the 300's to HKG. I'm not sure where the 400's went too. I remember I was so hoping that AN would continue to grow in the market. I actually have a Schaback die cast model in the 747-300 livery

 

[Trakman]

It is a pity that Sir Peter squandered the Ansett opportunity with the foolish selection of aircraft that gave them no chance for economies. And AirNZ paid too much for something that they did not understand and then when they realised what they had bought just dumped it. Australia would have benefited from a healthy Ansett. It was a great story for a while.

But market realities don't always follow the best route - what if Qantas was not forced to integrate Australian Airlines and could have stayed an international carrier?

 

[leadman]

Very interesting though!!! We sometimes have that yes/no decision in life. QF solely international may have seen so many different scenarios. Interestingly I saw the JQ flight land in Taipei recently, but could never imagine QF there now.


I remember the promotions back in the 80's with AN as the youngest fleet, but by the 00's different story!

 

[Awesom Andy]

It is likely that in our population of 23 million, there are perhaps 300,000 - 400,000 very frequent to quite frequent (say at least six return trips a year: the JessicaTams, JohnK and markis10s of the world) flyers but a far larger group of occasional flyers, who travel by air once or twice a year, and fly internationally even less. So it's the decisions of the first group that count for an airline: if this group is getting jaded about the QF brand to some extent or even worse, en masse, then that's a dangerous sentiment for an airline that is losing bucketloads of money each week, as QFi in particular is (mind you, VA overall and QFd are also nothing financially to write home about at present).

We also need to keep in mind that, when the infrequent flyers are planning to take flights, it's not uncommon that they would ask someone who fly more than they do for advices. And I certainly won't suggest anyone to travel with an airline who just ran over my cat, so to speak.

 

[Alanslegal]

I had a recent experience where I was contacted by Qantas in September that after speaking to a QF stewardess that I switch to Star Alliance for 6 months to gain gold status as QF offers nothing more for people who travel to multiple Asian routes now, as P1 is really designed for the LHR or LAX travellers. The reply was "your choice" and without any attempt to keep you with them it was "good luck". To walk away from business, to me, is staggering!!!

To be fair though I wouldn't expect many of them to know the pro's & con's of the FF program, let alone to the level of a serious/enthusiast frequent flier.

Qantas suffers from unrealistic expectations from Australians who want it to deliver a full range product at a LCC price, and to service all locations across the country. It can't be done. However it can do financially better than it is doing now, and you only need to look at CX to see how a purely private enterprise airline can still be profitable. Though they don't have to deal with nationalistic expectations....

You're probably on the ball there. QF - well their international business anyway - is only surviving because of the nationalistic expectation and thus keeping it 'alive' for that purpose. The flying landscape has changed and many fliers who pay for their flights out of their own pocket wants 'cheap, cheap, cheap'. If someone was paying for me ie my employer, then go ahead and pay the maximum price.

Younger generations are also more likely to hop on - hop off between different airlines, just like they do with work and other fashionable things, so there is now a declining loyalty base IMO. QF can brag about the 8 million registered frequent fliers, however it means little when every Joe and Jane is earning points at Woolworths and then fighting the other 8 million member plus other OW members try to fight/secure for that one elusive F award, forget about it - it's literally easier to win the lotto. The smart ones, there's quite a few here, that have jumped planes and moved to other programs.

I consider myself to be part of that younger generation, well kind of pushing it now though, and have no fixed loyalty really. If QF did go belly up, I'd potentially lose a few hundred thousands of points, and move on. I might be a bit sad for an hour or two and then realise I could still travel the world like I currently do and still get around no issues. About 5-6 years ago I thought chasing status was 'cool' and did so for about 2-3 years, got to 3465 LTSC. I have been stuck there since, well maybe I have earnt 100SC or so in the three years since.

 

[harvyk]

We also need to keep in mind that, when the infrequent flyers are planning to take flights, it's not uncommon that they would ask someone who fly more than they do for advices. And I certainly won't suggest anyone to travel with an airline who just ran over my cat, so to speak.

Disagree with this, in my experience, the infrequent flyers will jump onto something like webjet, find the cheapest fare costing them only $20, and then come and complain to the frequent flyers about how they where charged $300 for baggage, it was BYO entertainment (of which they had none), and a half a sandwich with a small can of coke cost then $51, and as such there went their holiday budget out the window...

Oh, and airports of certain cities are not actually in the city they claim to service...

 

[leadman]

The scent just became much heavier!!!! Changing loyalty programmes which forces people to become less loyal?

 

[ChrisDPom]

Us PER based passengers have probably suffered the most.
No QA to Asia now, have to fly Emirates to Europe, damn expensive internal WA flights, etc. I am in Bali at present and arrived on a half full Jetstar.
My return flight got cancelled the replacement re-timed 4 times with the last an 8.30am flight at which point I cashed in the return in disgust and re-booked a 2.40pm return with Virgin. Was a Tiger Air like farce.
I am Club Member + have 500k QFF and just aim for silver annually to pick my seats.
Always fly economy and 3 annual Europe flights booked months in advance (May, Aug & Dec all booked already).
I have even been using points to/from MEL & SYD to catch the 380s now SIN stop no longer used.
My loyalty is getting very strained and wasn't helped when we arrived on Monday at PER Intl for Jetstar flight and the lounge was closed as no QF flight for more than 90 mins. Supposed to be open for Jetstar International flights so Club members can still use it!!
My only positive of the Emirates link up is the wonderful Dubai business lounge after the tatty SIN version.
Going to have another Bintang after that rant

 

[leadman]

I'd suggest have a few more than just one! And it was worth the rant!!!

 

[drron]

The scent just became much heavier!!!! Changing loyalty programmes which forces people to become less loyal?

A truly prescient thread!