Citi Select (post March 2013) - ? worth $700 annual fee

[cove]

Westpac Black Altitude MasterCard earn rate is 0.625 points per dollar.
I am still doing well with Citi Select for the points earn.

 

[Cruiser Elite]

legroom IMHO the thrust of your post is on the money - if you have significant to high $ spend monthly with non- Amex accepting vendors then Select is a Monty for KF pts.

As cove regularly points out FF pts cultivation and harvesting is all a game with many plans and tactics to be employed - no two AFF members / CC users will have identical requirements but AFF is an invaluable tool when formulating ones game plan.

Your post here will indeed shed some light on this subject and help other AFFers in the formulation of their own individual 'game plan' - thanks for your post.

 

[legroom]

Westpac Black Altitude MasterCard earn rate is 0.625 points per dollar.
I am still doing well with Citi Select for the points earn.

Thanks for jogging my memory.

I was giving Westpac VISA / MC the fuzzy benefits of 50% AMEX rate when it is really not.

 

[Jack_OC]

But if the monthly spend is only $5K, the proposition becomes marginal considering the Westpac cards come (free) with the very competitive AMEX card and the monthly gain over Westpac cards (at 2 US cents per mile) drops to $58.

My thinking is if your spend is closer to $5K monthly, you should not hold on to this card.

More than 10K monthly, you will get somewhere.

Thoughts ?

Agree total spend is important, but more specifically it's total non-Amex spend, so I don't really understand the bit in bold. If you can use Amex for most of your spend, the Altitude Black combo will earn you close to the same amount of points as Select (or possibly more).

Black Amex earns 1.5 KF pts per $ while the MC earns only 0.625. That means:
- if 90% of your spending is on Amex, overall you'd earn 1.41 pts per $
- if 80% of your spending is on Amex, overall you'd earn 1.325 pts per $
- 70% Amex = 1.238 pts per $
- 60% Amex = 1.15 pts per $

So even in the last example, the incremental benefit of Select is just 0.18 pts per $. You'd have to spend a really serious amount (>$200k per year) to make that worth a $700 fee. And I would say most people could use Amex for more than 60% of their spending.

 

[legroom]

Jack

You are correct.

I meant non-AMEX monthly spending total.

In my calculations, I tried to work out - for my own benefits - what would be the cut-off points (for non-AMEX monthly spend) that would justify the $700 annual fee.

To me, that is approx 10K per month on Select to make it worthwhile.

*******

Another thought would be to cancel my card before it is due and apply for +1 to have a new card with the sign-on bonus.

Rotate that every 12 months (? possible) and you would have a better yield than having just one card.

Another thought bubble from me !

Agree total spend is important, but more specifically it's total non-Amex spend, so I don't really understand the bit in bold. If you can use Amex for most of your spend, the Altitude Black combo will earn you close to the same amount of points as Select (or possibly more).

Black Amex earns 1.5 KF pts per $ while the MC earns only 0.625. That means:
- if 90% of your spending is on Amex, overall you'd earn 1.41 pts per $
- if 80% of your spending is on Amex, overall you'd earn 1.325 pts per $
- 70% Amex = 1.238 pts per $
- 60% Amex = 1.15 pts per $

So even in the last example, the incremental benefit of Select is just 0.18 pts per $. You'd have to spend a really serious amount (>$200k per year) to make that worth a $700 fee. And I would say most people could use Amex for more than 60% of their spending.

 

[Jack_OC]

Jack

You are correct.

I meant non-AMEX monthly spending total.

In my calculations, I tried to work out - for my own benefits - what would be the cut-off points (for non-AMEX monthly spend) that would justify the $700 annual fee.

To me, that is approx 10K per month on Select to make it worthwhile.

Yeah that makes sense. But I would hazard a guess that if you're spending $10k a month at merchants that don't accept Amex, you might just be using it for business purposes! I have no problem with that, but you have to wonder what Citi are thinking to "enhance" this card to the extent that it's only attractive for those using it outside the T&Cs.

Another thought would be to cancel my card before it is due and apply for +1 to have a new card with the sign-on bonus.

Rotate that every 12 months (? possible) and you would have a better yield than having just one card.

Another thought bubble from me !

Good thinking. The sign on bonus still makes this card very much worth it in year one. Unfortunately, my +1 wouldn't meet the income threshold in her own right, and I assume that's how they assess it?

 

[burmans]

Not quite true, their own signature card earns effectively 1:1 for KF and I'm only paying $149/year for it. And I don't value at anything like 2c/mile, I can buy US/LM miles cheaper than that and they have lower redemption rates/lower surcharges that SQ, I'd be using 1.5c at best for "value".

 

[Jack_OC]

Not quite true,

What's not quite true?

their own signature card earns effectively 1:1 for KF and I'm only paying $149/year for it.

You obviously have a special deal, as the normal fee for Signature is $199 in the first year, and then $395 thereafter. Also, I thought the transfer rate from Signature had recently changed to 2:1, ie 0.75 pts per $? It also seems like a poor value card now (unless you get a reduced fee). The best option for me remains Altitude Black comb plus Amex Plat Edge (for supermarket spend at a true 3 pts per $).

And I don't value at anything like 2c/mile, I can buy US/LM miles cheaper than that and they have lower redemption rates/lower surcharges that SQ, I'd be using 1.5c at best for "value".

I agree 2c per pt is expensive. WRT USDM and Avianca, are redemption rates on SQ really lower than with KF? Or do you mean redemption rates are lower on other airlines?

 

[quokka77]

I have been dismayed to read of the devaluation of the Select card.

Some thoughts on the above in no particular order:

Re: comparative value of USDM / LM / SQ points. One thing burmans post does not cover is availability. Obviously you can get reasonable availability with Avianca LM on SQ, but there is next to none via USDM. Only SQ points let you access the most complete SQ award inventory (if that's what you're after). This of course does not mean that USDM and LM don't have other advantages over SQ (discussed elsewhere, sometimes cryptically).

Re: Select value and non-Amex spend. The holy grail (at least in our market) would of course be conversion of Amex credit into Visa / MC / EFTPOS (or even cash), at as low a rate as possible. Given that you can get 1.5 points per dollar on Amex spend, versus 0.625ppd on the next best card after Select, the cost of conversion has to a lot less than 0.85 cents per dollar to make it worthwhile. There are a few ways to do this which may also factor into people's calculations. Some of these are labour intensive, and there are serious drawbacks (time delay, lack of chip, PIN, name on some pre-paid cards, dealing with counter staff). I seem to recall Joshua saying the usual cost to do this was about 0.5 cents per dollar, but he did not give further details. If anyone has further specific information, I'd be more than willing to hear it (a not-very-subtle way of saying I'd love you to PM me the details).

I haven't seen a lot of discussion of the Emirates MC (which earns 1.5ppd). That may be because I haven't looked extensively, but would love to hear more from anyone who's got one. My sister has one of these which she uses a lot, however she just enjoys burning the points indiscriminantly (and doesn't mind shelling out large amounts for J if required, so has high EK status and points reserve anyway), and she certainly hasn't analysed the awards chart / availability critically. Given Emirates' close relationship with Qantas, would this be the best option for us now?

I would be interested to know, because I have just shut down my Virgin flyer card (so that I can remove a potential obstacle in the way of another Citi sign-on bonus). I would like a visa / MC option again but want to make sure I get the best bang for my buck, and don't waste an application (currently doing year 1 Plat amex charge for the sign-on, as well as plat edge for the great supermarket multiplier). I was just going to get the Select, but if I can do better, I will. Spend on the virgin flyer in a normal month was averaging about between 2 and 2.5k I think.

 

[legroom]

I have been dismayed to read of the devaluation of the Select card.

Some thoughts on the above in no particular order:

Re: comparative value of USDM / LM / SQ points. One thing burmans post does not cover is availability. Obviously you can get reasonable availability with Avianca LM on SQ, but there is next to none via USDM. Only SQ points let you access the most complete SQ award inventory (if that's what you're after). This of course does not mean that USDM and LM don't have other advantages over SQ (discussed elsewhere, sometimes cryptically).

Re: Select value and non-Amex spend. The holy grail (at least in our market) would of course be conversion of Amex credit into Visa / MC / EFTPOS (or even cash), at as low a rate as possible. Given that you can get 1.5 points per dollar on Amex spend, versus 0.625ppd on the next best card after Select, the cost of conversion has to a lot less than 0.85 cents per dollar to make it worthwhile. There are a few ways to do this which may also factor into people's calculations. Some of these are labour intensive, and there are serious drawbacks (time delay, lack of chip, PIN, name on some pre-paid cards, dealing with counter staff). I seem to recall Joshua saying the usual cost to do this was about 0.5 cents per dollar, but he did not give further details. If anyone has further specific information, I'd be more than willing to hear it (a not-very-subtle way of saying I'd love you to PM me the details).

I haven't seen a lot of discussion of the Emirates MC (which earns 1.5ppd). That may be because I haven't looked extensively, but would love to hear more from anyone who's got one. My sister has one of these which she uses a lot, however she just enjoys burning the points indiscriminantly (and doesn't mind shelling out large amounts for J if required, so has high EK status and points reserve anyway), and she certainly hasn't analysed the awards chart / availability critically. Given Emirates' close relationship with Qantas, would this be the best option for us now?

I would be interested to know, because I have just shut down my Virgin flyer card (so that I can remove a potential obstacle in the way of another Citi sign-on bonus). I would like a visa / MC option again but want to make sure I get the best bang for my buck, and don't waste an application (currently doing year 1 Plat amex charge for the sign-on, as well as plat edge for the great supermarket multiplier). I was just going to get the Select, but if I can do better, I will. Spend on the virgin flyer in a normal month was averaging about between 2 and 2.5k I think.

My calculations up thread showed any Select spending < $5K per month is not worth the $700 annual fee (now that the free hotel night had been enhanced away).

You're better off on a Visa / MC card earning 0.625 mile / $ as the free component of an AMEX card earning 1.5 miles / $.

That's before taking into account the sign-on bonus.

YMYV !

 

[albyd]

Now we know Select is well on the way to being "enhanced" and we've all done the survey, when are we likely to get the "good" news on the enhancements? I'm prepared to keep it as my sole card & not worry about also juggling my Altitude Amex. I'm spending $15-20K/month. I'm giving up some points by not going Amex as much as possible but the difference isn't worth the effort to maintain the simplicity at 1.33 earn rate especially with reduced incidence of surcharge & near 100% acceptance.

I'd like to see:
* Priority Pass replaced with something I'm more likely to use - even a limited # of Virgin Lounge Passes - I travel mostly domestically. Only used PP once;
* A reasonable replacement for the Hotel Stay - eg domestic flight like on Platinum Edge;
* reaffirm KF 1.33 earn rate
* no more additions to the list of exceptions to points earn.
* anything else is a bonus - only claimed the "free" wine once - doesn't move the needle for me.

albyd.

 

[DaveB]

I always make use of the option to pay annual card fees by the points redemption option. If the pain level is irritating, provides a good indication on card value. Feel it no longer is a game when it involves your own after tax $$$.
Having never used the Priority Pass lounge option and find free flights and one night stays not worth the bother, my issue will be how much they enhance card usage.
Used the past month as a trial run not loading the card more than $10K. Took close to a week what previously was processed in a day.

 

[burmans]

What's not quite true?

There is no other Visa / MC on the Australian market with a similar (or even close) to Select in terms of KF mile earn rate (1.33 miles per $).

Westpac Black / KrisFlyer Visa / MC earn rate is 0.75 miles per $ IIRC.

You obviously have a special deal, as the normal fee for Signature is $199 in the first year, and then $395 thereafter. Also, I thought the transfer rate from Signature had recently changed to 2:1, ie 0.75 pts per $? It also seems like a poor value card now (unless you get a reduced fee). The best option for me remains Altitude Black comb plus Amex Plat Edge (for supermarket spend at a true 3 pts per $).

I agree 2c per pt is expensive. WRT USDM and Avianca, are redemption rates on SQ really lower than with KF? Or do you mean redemption rates are lower on other airlines?

I do have a special deal on my Signature but frankly so do plenty of others, not that special. Transfer rate on Signature has not changed, that's the Platinum, so at $149 and 1:1 it is for me a very good card in combination with the Westpac KF Amex.

Reedemption rate is indeed lower on SQ though I agree availability would be nowhere near as good.

 

[Jack_OC]

I do have a special deal on my Signature but frankly so do plenty of others, not that special. Transfer rate on Signature has not changed, that's the Platinum, so at $149 and 1:1 it is for me a very good card in combination with the Westpac KF Amex.

Reedemption rate is indeed lower on SQ though I agree availability would be nowhere near as good.

Thanks for the clarification. $149 and 1:1 is not bad. However, I'm only paying $150 for Altitude Black, and earning a fair bit more than 1:1 with it overall, and it pays points on ATO. So for me at least, that's a far better deal than any of the Citi cards now.

But yes, worth thinking about whether Signature is worth it as an add on to Black Amex. It might just be if I could get it for $149. Wonder if Citi would let me downgrade from Select at renewal time?

 

[legroom]

Let us know if that is possible, please

Esp. the $149 p.a. bit

At $395 (full price), it is not worth having this card.

Thanks for the clarification. $149 and 1:1 is not bad. However, I'm only paying $150 for Altitude Black, and earning a fair bit more than 1:1 with it overall, and it pays points on ATO. So for me at least, that's a far better deal than any of the Citi cards now.

But yes, worth thinking about whether Signature is worth it as an add on to Black Amex. It might just be if I could get it for $149. Wonder if Citi would let me downgrade from Select at renewal time?

 

[burmans]

Thanks for the clarification. $149 and 1:1 is not bad. However, I'm only paying $150 for Altitude Black, and earning a fair bit more than 1:1 with it overall, and it pays points on ATO. So for me at least, that's a far better deal than any of the Citi cards now.

But yes, worth thinking about whether Signature is worth it as an add on to Black Amex. It might just be if I could get it for $149. Wonder if Citi would let me downgrade from Select at renewal time?

Just to confirm I absolutely agree that the Bank Issued Amex's are a better deal than Visa/MCard, I just dont agree the Visa/MCard that comes with them are worth much is so I am running the Signature in conjunction with a Westpac KF Amex. If you want just one package, yes one of the Westpac packages may be best, and indeed even at $149 a year many people wont have enough non-Amex spend to justify a separate card with a seperate fees.

On the Signature, the fact that they offer to new customers for $199 suggest that as a minimum that is achievable (not only initially but ongoing also, Citi have been prepared to negotiate fees with me in the past).

 

[Cruiser Elite]

humph ............. screw Citibank.

Needed 10K Asia Miles to get me a J reward seat MEL-HKG-NKG - Amex transfer at 1:1 to both KF / AM - Citi to KF at 1.5:1 - to AM 2:1 - lucky only a pocketful of pts needed.

 

[quokka77]

Well I took the plunge and signed up. In the next day or two I will put >$3000 of payments through the card, for which I otherwise would not have gained points (no option to pay these particular bills with Amex, and I didn't have any other points earning visa/mc). Just have to check the bonus points register with the first spend, and I will be happy with this card (at least for the first year). I elected not to send the sign-on bonus to Qantas, in spite of the reduced number of points (I have no interest in playing the Qantas accumulation game). Will also be investigating manufactured spend, to the extent that is possible.

Interesting: my welcome pack still makes reference to the "free hotel night". I won't be holding my breath...

Regarding comparison with Amex which has been occuring above, especially Jacks and legroom, here's a few more thoughts...
- Westpac Amex / visa combo does not earn points on any bpay payments (and I do a few of these).
- My current Amex cards are the Charge and Edge: I got the Charge for the sign-on points, but for most uses (ie anywhere except Australian restaurants and travel operators, earning 3 and 2ppd respectively), the Citi select has better earning potential (although no ability to transfer to AA or Enrich, sadly).
- Edge tips the balance back towards Amex with its free domestic flight and very good grocery spend return (this alone is approximately $1000 per month for our household, and there have been some manufactured spend opportunities in the supermarkets recently, taking it over $5000 spend at Coles/woolies for the quarter).

After looking at all of this, I think the end-point for me may well be Plat Edge, as well as Westpac Amex / Visa combo, and maybe an ANZ Amex / Visa combo for BPAY goodness too (we get reduced ANZ cc fees through our homeloan), unless I am willing and able to keep on churning.

Plat charge viability to be discussed separately on that thread.

More broadly, since I started playing this game in early March this year, I have taken out 2 Amex cards and 2 visa cards (1 since cancelled), as well as opening 2 new savings accounts (ING and Citi plus). My partner is getting a bit bewildered ("which card do we use for what again?"), but will no doubt enjoy our return trip to Europe next year in J. And I won't be taking out any more cards until at least April next year (and maybe not even then), I promise!

 

[dji]

Does anyone still have a list of the complimentary stay hotels? Citi have removed it from their website..

 

[cove]

Quokka77 have you tried showing your partner how to shop at Woolies using RAC sourced discounted Wish Gift cards that you can pay with Citi Select to score points plus bonuses by flashing the Everyday Rewards card at the checkout?
Of course it can get confusing but then show her a rebate site like Starthere to port your way into DanMurphys and then pay with Woolies discounted gift cards that you got from RAC and then choose free delivery.
Watch out for your partner making a booking to get your sanity checked.