Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altitude)

[harvyk]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Livid about this and CASA

"no longer poses a serious and imminent risk to air safety"
Suddenly 100 odd pilots need retraining and there is nothing about how this has come about, how no one noticed or particularly complained or explained. Is this a case of self regulation gone wrong? The pilots association are suspiciously quiet not explaining the problem.

There is no harm mitigation/minimisation : Tiger grounded - are all those 100 pilots totally incompetent enough to be an 'imminent danger' - why can't some flights get off the ground? Not one senior pilot? Or do we tar all pilots with the same brush because a P plater got sloppy.

CASA's job is to ensure that airlines operate safely, on that they err on the side of caution... I agree with you, not all 100 pilots are in need of training, however obviously it's more than 2 considering that there has been multiple incidents, thus getting all pilots to go over some training is probably a good thing, it means that the pilots who don't need training are given a refresher and pilots who do are given the training they urgently require.

Public Purse. Because CASA may not be up to speed with the PAN/TGA debacle, I can see a 300 millionish lawsuit claim anytime from 0.3 to 7 years after they take off again. Once up, they can do a Phoenix and a name change. If anything CASA/ Cwth Of A is increasing its plaintiff potential for wanton destruction of value unless they can prove 'imminent danger' beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

As for the idea of a $300 million lawsuit in the future, it would be like me taking the RTA to court because I'd lost my drivers license because I'd been caught speeding too many times.
As for prove "imminent danger" in a court, well CASA was only able to place a ban for 7 days, they needed to take their case to the federal court to have it extended onto the end of the month, thus a court has already decided CASA really does have a case against Tiger.

I am also not impressed by the emergency responses deals by the other airlines, with pax from the 18th to end-of month still in limbo. Many 'victim of tiger' prices are more than Mid October specials. I expect the Alice and Cairns to be the biggest loosers.

As for "Victim of tiger" pricing. Where does it state that an airline must provide cheap flights to a competitors customers when the competitor is unable to provide those flights? The other airlines are businesses, they are not in the habit of providing freebee's to customers who are only customers because the customers first choice was unable to provide the service.

 

[mannej]

I'm no legal eagle, but Do CASABLANCA have to prove beyond reasonable doubt or to the balance of probabilities?

It is not a criminal case, so what is the difference in what they have to or the level they have to prove to the court?


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app

 

[rechoboam]

Re PAN the question was whether govt agencies acted outside their powers and preventing PAN seeking redress in court. If regular procedures are being followed it may be a different situation. Tiger can seek to have this overturned in fed court, I understand they have not done this?

 

[markis10]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Re PAN the question was whether govt agencies acted outside their powers and preventing PAN seeking redress in court. If regular procedures are being followed it may be a different situation. Tiger can seek to have this overturned in fed court, I understand they have not done this?

Any legal action would be somewhat slow, I suspect the management of Tiger feel its a quicker road to work with CASA and not pursue legal options.

 

[clifford]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Seems a little unfair to me - was any action taken against QFlink after their multiple stick shaker incidents? Or JQ after their near smokin-hole-in-the-ground incident?

Just sayin

I don't think I've commented on this before (apologies if I'm wrong), but I completely agree with your sentiments.

My take is that this is politically driven by the Federal Govt (don't forget that the head of CASA is a new Labor appointee), putting pressure on CASA to throw the rule book at Tiger, as they were starting to annoy Qantas with their low pricing and disrupt the new cosy duopoly that is tightening its grip.

Tiger's infractions are, in my view, relatively minor and not life threatening. On the other hand, our good old friend Qantas has had countless more serious scares in recent times, and what's CASA doing about them? Not much I would suggest. No engineer/pilot retraining, or whatever.

I am so worried about this that I have written to CASA expressing my concerns (of course no sensible reply) and we all know what the outcome will be. Tiger will leave Australia within 3 months, and the Govt will have gotten its way without most people understanding what has happened.

Oh, and just for the record, in a previous life I was a senior employee of CASA's predecessor, CAA, so I might just have a very small insight as to how these things work (or maybe not).

 

[LiamR]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Tiger's infractions are, in my view, relatively minor and not life threatening. On the other hand, our good old friend Qantas has had countless more serious scares in recent times, and what's CASA doing about them? Not much I would suggest. No engineer/pilot retraining, or whatever.

I'm sorry Clifford, do you have any examples of where Qantas has had a serious incident, where it's been discovered the fault lies within Qantas?

 

[mannej]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Clifford, with the likes of 30, 32 and 72, have the reports indicated that the pilots actions where part of the problem in the first place, or that they were professional, and one of the reasons that these 3 aircraft landed safely?

Is TT also a worry to QF operations?

 

[concorde71]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Clifford, with the likes of 30, 32 and 72, have the reports indicated that the pilots actions where part of the problem in the first place, or that they were professional, and one of the reasons that these 3 aircraft landed safely?

Is TT also a worry to QF operations?

Im a bit thick, can someone explain what 30, 32 and 72 means here, and its relevence. (Obviously something I have missed somewhere). Not being a smartarse, Im just lost on what those numbers mean.

 

[LiamR]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Im a bit thick, can someone explain what 30, 32 and 72 means here, and its relevence. (Obviously something I have missed somewhere). Not being a smartarse, Im just lost on what those numbers mean.

Qantas Flight 30 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Qantas Flight 72 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Qantas Flight 32 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rechoboam]

I don't think I've commented on this before (apologies if I'm wrong), but I completely agree with your sentiments.

My take is that this is politically driven by the Federal Govt (don't forget that the head of CASA is a new Labor appointee), putting pressure on CASA to throw the rule book at Tiger, as they were starting to annoy Qantas with their low pricing and disrupt the new cosy duopoly that is tightening its grip.

Tiger's infractions are, in my view, relatively minor and not life threatening. On the other hand, our good old friend Qantas has had countless more serious scares in recent times, and what's CASA doing about them? Not much I would suggest. No engineer/pilot retraining, or whatever.

I am so worried about this that I have written to CASA expressing my concerns (of course no sensible reply) and we all know what the outcome will be. Tiger will leave Australia within 3 months, and the Govt will have gotten its way without most people understanding what has happened.

Oh, and just for the record, in a previous life I was a senior employee of CASA's predecessor, CAA, so I might just have a very small insight as to how these things work (or maybe not).

Wow, this conspiracy at the highest levels of Australian government and business will be front page news as soon as you reveal it to the media. They will be making Hollywood films about you...or will you be keeping your explosive revelations to yourself?

 

[concorde71]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Qantas Flight 30 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Qantas Flight 72 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Qantas Flight 32 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ahhh Ok, Thanks Liam..... Correct me if I am wrong, but these were all technical problems that could happen to any airline at any time, and totally unexpected / unpredictable events. Can hardy blame QF, and it appears CASA,s and QF response was spot on.

 

[LiamR]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Ahhh Ok, Thanks Liam..... Correct me if I am wrong, but these were all technical problems that could happen to any airline at any time, and totally unexpected / unpredictable events. Can hardy blame QF, and it appears CASA,s and QF response was spot on.

Exactly.

QF72 - Fault with the airbus aircraft, this even has never occurred before so they couldn't prevent it. First thing pilot did is identify the problem and disable the autopilot. In my eyes Qantas did the right thing?

QF32 - Design fault with Rolls Royce Engine. The pilot saved that flight.

QF30 - Oxygen tank exploded. Never happened before. Pilot successfully landed.

In my eyes it's events like this which prove just how safe Qantas is.

 

[mannej]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Exactly.

QF30 - Fault with the airbus aircraft, this even has never occurred before so they couldn't prevent it. First thing pilot did is identify the problem and disable the autopilot. In my eyes Qantas did the right thing?

QF32 - Design fault with Rolls Royce Engine. The pilot saved that flight.

QF72 - Oxygen tank exploded. Never happened before. Pilot successfully landed.

In my eyes it's events like this which prove just how safe Qantas is.

Swap 30 and 72 around

 

[LiamR]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Swap 30 and 72 around

*Facepalm*

Hey, cut me some slack. I've been up since 5.

 

[rechoboam]

In my industry our mettle is tested when the @&"@ hits the fan, that's why we get paid the big(ish) bucks. The QF training and error handling, open disclosure etc is why I feel happier with them atm than some airlines based in dictatorships.

 

[ethernet]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

I wonder if Tiger or SIA executives reads this thread?!

Well Dk4 And Edison, I am sure their Lawyers will advise and include all possibilities.

The court case extension does not get casablanca off the hook, especially if 'imminent' was used a lot.
We already know the LSALT issue came from a provider of incorrect Nav data - so that will not be happening again. Did QF and VA know this - and if so, why would you tip off a competitor?

Yes, the cases are different but when I caught the words similar 'not their intent to destroy Tiger' I think blind Freddy knows better/ sees recklessness and 2/3 of negligence - that the regulators owe a duty of care to Tiger is a contestable point. Also look to our Free Trade Agreement with both Singapore and USA
to see nothing inconsistent in there.

Of course Tiger bends to the regulator(s) when there is a firm hand on their privates. You will hear a few weak 'nos and donts, and once out from clammy clutches, the allegation of pack rape comes later.

http://www.fedcourt.gov.au/litigants/class_actions/Defence_1.pdf
and Pan Debacle. Although settled with no admission of guilt,
a long running case, where as people leave the employ of the defendant over the years, the strength of rebuttal sinks over time, while the damages compound over time.

My prediction is
1) Court case to seize documents and emails, and look out if they find 'this may break them' concerns
2) Tiger restarts flying - and in < 1year one brand name change to crystallize 'destruction of brand' claim.
3) Weak attempt to sell caboodle to Virgin - and rejected.
4) With TD at helm, sub license Holdings to Ryan Air or similar
5) Another name change back to Tiger, after some sort of private settlement with no admissions
6) SIA finally and magically gets SYD-LAX rights and some other wanted routes - a coincidence.
7) CasaBlanca, with a fixed budget and an efficiency dividend to deliver - discover like ACCC, ligation costs, so there will be a wave of redundancies to pay AG's for expensive legal opinions.

Strategically this is one scenario. There is one election and a probable change. Tiger will have the deep pockets for a protracted, technical legal battle and appeals. Compensation is usually tax free, and with a loss to carry over, the end carrier will never have to worry about paying tax for donkeys (should they be in a position to make anything).

 

[rechoboam]

We already know the LSALT issue came from a provider of incorrect Nav data - so that will not be happening again. Did QF and VA know this - and if so, why would you tip off a competitor?

In my industry if a similar tool of trade was known to be faulty and I kept it to myself deliberately for advantage , I would lose my licence (and possibly my liberty if people were killed). I don't know how it works on aviation.

 

[ethernet]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

In my industry if a similar tool of trade was known to be faulty and I kept it to myself deliberately for advantage , I would lose my licence (and possibly my liberty if people were killed). I don't know how it works on aviation.

I totally agree. Tiger admits? to not checking whatever was loaded into the flight profiles - and SHOULD have.
But you have oodles of pilots, and at least one questioning LSALT, you would THINK it would be a top matter for escalation upwards. Technically both are supposed to check. Either no one else bought off this provider, or pilots do not spit the dummy sufficiently when bad settings are spotted having been loaded in.

I think the supplier of those profiles will have a difficult time in the future, but it would be interesting to know if others relied on them, and how many pilots have are overly dependent on 'computer' to get from A to B.
Could some OOL settings also be out - International carriers?

 

[Deleted User]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

For the AFF'ers currently OS, here's the article on tiger as broadcast on Inside Business today... Available in better quality on iview, but here's a youtube link which is needed to watch this outside Australia.

Enjoy...

YouTube - ‪Wounded Tiger 10 7 2011‬&rlm;

 

[Deleted User]

Re: Ooh Tiger, you did it again and are grounded - fly below LSALT (lowest safe altit

Enjoy...

YouTube - ‪Wounded Tiger 10 7 2011‬&rlm;

Plus here is the follow up interview - Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce discusses the airline, and competition in the airline industry as Tiger's suspension continues.

YouTube - ‪Qantas benefits from Tiger woes Inside Business Interview 10 7 2011‬&rlm;