Incident (A330) at HKG International Airport

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Some reports (including Channel 7) said that the first engine failure was upon reaching cruising altitude shortly after leaving Surabaya. Not sure why there is so much confusion, but if this is true you have to ask why they wouldn't divert.
 
Naturally I can't speak for Cathay Pacific's emergency procedures but at Qantas an evacuation can be ordered 1 of 3 ways

-An evacuation PA
-An evacuation alarm
-A pilot yelling EVACUATE through the cabin

All 3 methods of evacuations come from the pilots who are the only people allowed to order one. In a ditching (water landing) it's straight into an evacuation - the command doesn't (and won't) come from the pilots

Where there is the potential for things to get serious and once the aircraft has stopped, the pilots make an ALERT PA - this informs the crew that something non normal may take place - an evacuation, a precautionary disembarkation or maybe nothing at all

In both scenarios the pilots would have looked at the immediate risk to the aircraft and passengers. With very little information and not being able to see it can be a difficult call to make and obviously it is better to be safe than sorry.

QF32 did only have tires burst (which still dangerous, in this situation was 'normal' just like the QF12 a few years back) This Cathay flight had tires burst, loss of engines, reports of fire etc so slightly more dangerous

With QF32 the pilots decided that there was no immediate danger and that disembarkation by stairs would be adequate. As the passengers were disembarked by stairs in a non normal situation - this is called a precautionary disembarkation (a precautionary can also be done using slides but giving passengers time to sit and slide as opposed to jumping and sitting). At any time a precautionary can be upscaled to a full evacuation by giving an evacuation signal - all the doors will be opened and slides deployed.

I'm sure jb747 can give some more information to what is happening at his end but hope this gives you some idea
 
On the other hand, I wonder what circumstance triggered the need for an emergency evacuation in this particular incident? Notwithstanding the seriousness of the incident and the potential for catastrophic results, once on the ground it would seem the risk to the aircraft and its occupants was minimal. Yes, several tyres deflated, but that is what they are designed to do when overheating due to heavy breaking.

I think it was the correct judgement call at the time. The pilots probably were not aware of what caused the engine cut-outs, and as a result ordered the evac as a precautionary measure (risk of fire etc). I think we all can look back on any airline incident and say "Why did they evac", "Why didn't they evac", "Why didn't they divert" etc etc etc, and I think that's ok from an armchair perspective, but we weren't in the cabin seeing what they saw and with the information (or lack thereof) they had. The Incident report (once again) will make interesting reading, and will probably contain some information why the evac was ordered.
 
Some information regarding the evacuation from Cathay Pacific

The high speed and high energy braking led to very hot brakes, tyre deflation and the report from the FSD outside the aircraft that it had observed flames and smoke on the landing gear

At the same briefing, Quince Chong Director Corporate Affairs emphasized that no decision could be taken before touchdown on evacuation, until the aircraft safely landed and the commander was in the best position to assess the situation.

Once the pilots were told by the Fire Services Department that they had seen flames and smoke in the undercarriage, they decided to deplane the passengers and immediately alerted the cabin crew to begin the evacuation procedure

The pilots probably were not aware of what caused the engine cut-outs, and as a result ordered the evac as a precautionary measure (risk of fire etc).

Cathay Pacific today emphasized that at no time were both engines on CX780 from Sarabaya, which made an emergency landing at Hong Kong International Airport yesterday, shut down.
 
Some information regarding the evacuation from Cathay Pacific





Cathay Pacific today emphasized that at no time were both engines on CX780 from Sarabaya, which made an emergency landing at Hong Kong International Airport yesterday, shut down.

Interesting comment from Cathay, considering the RAT was deployed, one of the scenarios for that to occur is when AC1 & 2 are lost are lost and both engines are lost? It may well be that at least one engine was turning and burning but not providing any thrust.
 
QF32 did only have tires burst (which still dangerous, in this situation was 'normal' just like the QF12 a few years back) This Cathay flight had tires burst, loss of engines, reports of fire etc so slightly more dangerous
I guess the main difference here was the report if fire/flames from the breaks/gear.

Its always going to be a difficult call for the Captain this situation. Obviously he has limited view of the exterior or underside of the aircraft and need to make an immediate decision based on the limited information available. As you stated, better safe than sorry. Not ordering an evacuation and then finding a rapid deterioration in the situation could be a much worse end result.
 
I think it was the correct judgement call at the time.
I agree. I was just curious as to the difference in the situation to another event where a different (and still correct) decision was made. The difference would appear to be the presence of flames/fire.
The pilots probably were not aware of what caused the engine cut-outs, and as a result ordered the evac as a precautionary measure (risk of fire etc). I think we all can look back on any airline incident and say "Why did they evac", "Why didn't they evac", "Why didn't they divert" etc etc etc, and I think that's ok from an armchair perspective, but we weren't in the cabin seeing what they saw and with the information (or lack thereof) they had. The Incident report (once again) will make interesting reading, and will probably contain some information why the evac was ordered.
Exactly, but I think its ok to ask "why did/didn't they ..." rather than stating things like "they should/shouldn't have ...".

I was not in any way suggesting the wrong decision was made. Obvious I am not in a position to do so. I was asking what differences in this situation may lead to a different decision being made. More a question of curiosity than questioning the decision made.
 
Cathay Pacific today emphasized that at no time were both engines on CX780 from Sarabaya, which made an emergency landing at Hong Kong International Airport yesterday, shut down.

Interesting comment from Cathay, considering the RAT was deployed, one of the scenarios for that to occur is when AC1 & 2 are lost are lost and both engines are lost? It may well be that at least one engine was turning and burning but not providing any thrust.
I guess there may be a technical difference between an engine being "shut down" and an engine not operating correctly or not generating thrust as expected. The second engine may not have been shut down (a procedure undertaken by the pilots), but if not operating correctly may correctly result in RAT deployment.

[Speculation]I expect that if you have already shut down one engine and the other one starts misbehaving, you take whatever its going give you rather than shut it down and turn the aircraft into a 200T glider.[/Speculation]

This incident has already been added to the A330 Wikipedia page. The official report will make interesting reading indeed.
 
On the other hand, I wonder what circumstance triggered the need for an emergency evacuation in this particular incident? Notwithstanding the seriousness of the incident and the potential for catastrophic results, once on the ground it would seem the risk to the aircraft and its occupants was minimal. Yes, several tyres deflated, but that is what they are designed to do when overheating due to heavy breaking.

One would say that it was not a decision that they took lightly, given it's rare for an evacuation using slides to occur without some sort of injury occuring to at least some pax due to the slides.

My guess is that a light or warning which came on in the coughpit which told the pilots get out asap (eg an overheating warning etc), or the CX procedure says in the following event do an emergency evac, which takes the decision out of the pilots hands.
 
The ECAM system page would have been indicating the brake issues, I believe fire alerts are for cabin/cargo and engine:


ecam.jpg




Captain would have run through the evac checklist which has an early crew alert, at which time he would have sought/been informed of their obs and made a decision after that I would imagine.

a330evaccl.jpg
 
There is still a lot of speculation about the circumstances surrounding this incident, and of course we will need to await the official reports to know what really happened. However, this seems to be the probably series of events as best I can gather from multiple sources:

First engine failed about 10 mins out from HKG (and not soon after departure as has been reported from some sources). All was normal for a single engine approach at that stage.

Shortly after, the second engine failed to respond to thrust lever inputs and was "stuck" at 70% power. This is a RR engine, so 70% may relate to RPM (N1), or EPR, so doesn't tell us too much except that 70% in any measure from a single engine is not going to allow the pilots the benefit of a go-around if they don't get the approach right. But does mean it was not a glider at the time.

Naturally they could not land with one engine at 70%, so its likely the second engine was shutdown once the pilots knew they were close enough to be able to make the runway. Do that too soon and you land short, too late and they hit the runway very fast and risk overshooting.

This likely resulted in a very fast landing as they made certain of not landing short. Without reverse thrust and with a high landing speed, the breaks got very hot stopping the aircraft. Lots of mention of "parking brakes" being used to halt the aircraft.

The very hot brakes heats the tyres to the point where the pressure relief valves deflate the tyres (as designed) and the residual heat in the now very hot stationary brakes can result in fire, burning either the deflated tyres or any residual lubrication or hydraulic fluids in the vicinity.

Overall, not a likely combination of events that pilots would rehearse in the simulator. I expect they would practice for each one individually, but to be presented with such a sequence while established in decent and to get the aircraft safely onto a runway is certainly evidence of great airman-ship.
 
A few points need to be covered here. Firstly the aircraft did not lose an engine shortly after departure. There are some reports of an anomalous indication, but with all other parameters normal. That's not uncommon, and is normally an indication fault. For instance, if the oil pressure display disappeared, but the temperature remained normal, then there is no 'secondary indication', and it's just an indication fault. Pretty well everything that happens in an engine affects something else, so a single reading is always suspect (not ignored, just suspect).

There are reports that an engine stalled (at top of descent) and was shutdown (to recover from the stall), and it was the one running at idle. I would not, in any circumstances, trust that engine. So, it may have been running, but...

Stuck throttle at 70%. That's an interesting number, as it doesn't correspond to anything in particular. It's less power than the cruise. It may have been a setting at an intermediate point on the descent. Curious anyway. I haven't flown the 330, so I'm extrapolating from the 767...it may have been enough power to fly level, at low altitude and clean. I think it would be slightly above the power level required on a single engine approach. You immediately have major speed control issues if that is the case, as the a/c is simply going to accelerate on you, all the way down the glide slope.

If, on the other hand, that power level was insufficient for the approach, you have a modified glider, and your problems are even worse. In neither case do you have a go around option.

Evacuation. This is purely the Captain's call. You WILL injure people. Most will be minor, but there will likely be some very serious injuries. So, weigh that off against what you know has happened, and what you are being told. You also know that the aircraft is actually tested with a major brake fire, and left standing for 5 minutes before any fire crew action, so you have some minutes to decide. The tyres deflating is not an issue, though it will be violent, and the passengers are probably better off in the aircraft whilst that is happening. If you must have a fire on the ground, the wheels are probably the most benign point on the aircraft. In most cases, you simply won't have put enough energy into them to do anything other than deflate the tyres. You will evacuate when you have some other sort of problem. An engine fire that you can't control. A cabin fire. Perhaps a cargo fire. Generally though, you want some sort of confirmation, be it from the cabin, an external source, or your instruments.

In this case though, the landing was apparently at quite extreme speeds. The crew would know that they have put an enormous amount of heat into the braking system. I see it as a fair call either way.

It is a difficult decision, and it is one that the armchair critics always play with afterwards. Of course, they aren't sitting there in a lather of sweat, so mentally exhausted that they can hardly move.

From what I see of this event, it was extremely difficult, exceedingly well handled, and a huge credit to the crew. I might also add, that the various LCCs of the world, whilst claiming to be safe, simply give their crews the absolute minimum training. This was not something that minimum training would equip you for....
 
From what I see of this event, it was extremely difficult, exceedingly well handled, and a huge credit to the crew. I might also add, that the various LCCs of the world, whilst claiming to be safe, simply give their crews the absolute minimum training. This was not something that minimum training would equip you for....


Well said sir! What has not been noted and needs to be is the dangerous actions of many pax in taking their cabin baggage with them down the slides, unbelievable!
 
..............From what I see of this event, it was extremely difficult, exceedingly well handled, and a huge credit to the crew. I might also add, that the various LCCs of the world, whilst claiming to be safe, simply give their crews the absolute minimum training. This was not something that minimum training would equip you for....


Is Jetstar classed as a LCC? If so, do their pilots only have 'minimum training'?
:shock::confused:

(Hoping for an answer that I like here........)
 
Shortly after, the second engine failed to respond to thrust lever inputs and was "stuck" at 70% power. This is a RR engine, so 70% may relate to RPM, EPR or N1, so doesn't tell us too much except that 70% in any measure from a single engine is not going to allow the pilots the benefit of a go-around if they don't get the approach right. But does mean it was not a glider at the time.
I presume that it is N1.

Naturally they could not land wit one engine at 70%, so its likely the second engine was shutdown once the pilots knew they were close enough to be able to make the runway. Do that too soon and you land short, too late and they hit the runway very fast and risk overshooting.
I've only ever seen this practiced by the military, and even then, only in aircraft with ejection seats.

Lots of mention of "parking breaks" being used to halt the aircraft.
Not sure how it works on the 330, but use of the parking brake in what is called 'ultimate mode' exists on the 380. It will blow all of the tyres. If either engine was running, you should have normal braking though...

Overall, not a likely combination of events that pilots would rehearse in the simulator. I expect they would practice for each one individually, but to be presented with such a sequence while established in decent and to get the aircraft safely onto a runway is certainly evidence of great airman-ship.
You don't practice for compound emergencies at all. It is totally negative training. You do do individual sequences, and then, like a Lego building set, on the day put together the ones that you want.
 
I've only ever seen this practiced by the military, and even then, only in aircraft with ejection seats.
Not sure if its good or bad that the A330 does not come equipped from AB with a full set of ejection seats :lol:
Not sure how it works on the 330, but use of the parking brake in what is called 'ultimate mode' exists on the 380. It will blow all of the tyres. If either engine was running, you should have normal braking though...
But if no engines operating at the time of landing (if second was shut down just before), I assume there would be sufficient systems functioning for normal braking. But with the pilots knowing they were very fast, they may have decided some blown tyres and resulting brake fire was far better than an overshoot.

I guess its like when Mick and Paddy landed their aircraft on what they believed was the shortest runway in the world, "stomping" on the brakes, engaging reverse thrust and praying to the chosen deity. Then after screeching to a halt they realised not only was it the softest runway in the world, but looking left and right out the windows it was obviously the widest runway.

You don't practice for compound emergencies at all. It is totally negative training. You do do individual sequences, and then, like a Lego building set, on the day put together the ones that you want.
And it seems they did just that ... very successfully.
 
Not sure if its good or bad that the A330 does not come equipped from AB with a full set of ejection seats :lol:

I'm assuming that you mean for passengers & crew!

Add in some colour and you would have a great fireworks display!
 
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I presume that it is N1.
70% N1 is actually quite a low power out put situation.


I'm assuming that you mean for passengers & crew!

Add in some colour and you would have a great fireworks display!
There are military aircraft types around that have ejection seats for the pilots but not the rest of the crew :!: :shock: :shock:
 
70% N1 is actually quite a low power out put situation.
Yes, and no.

When I flew the 767, the N1 for a single engined approach was roughly 68%. I'm told by people who fly the Trent 330 that the equivalent power is around 55%. So, whilst you could probably get the aircraft to decelerate (pitch, speed brake, gear, flap), you won't have enough power to fly level, but you will have way too much to fly a stable approach. The a/c will accelerate down finals. The speed brake is quite ineffective in that configuration, and the flaps, even if you had them fully extended, will eventually blow back in.

This is a difficult exercise. Making it up as you go, without the benefit of a few dozen runs in the simulator, would be very difficult.

There are military aircraft types around that have ejection seats for the pilots but not the rest of the crew :!: :shock: :shock:
Yes, I once caught a ride on one...a US-3A.
 
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