QF2 diversion to Baku

[Aussie_flyer]

'Can't exceed crew hours'. 'Diddums'. If they had been in a military aircraft they would have carried on until they had completed their flight. Time they were told to get a reality check in circumstances like this....

What an absurd comparison

 

[SYD]

If they had been in a military aircraft they would have carried on until they had completed their flight.

But they’re not military and shouldn’t be expected to operate as such - well, unless the cough has hit the fan.

 

[arrow]

'Can't exceed crew hours'. 'Diddums'. If they had been in a military aircraft they would have carried on until they had completed their flight. Time they were told to get a reality check in circumstances like this....

I don’t think it needs to be binary, e.g. in the event of emergency where certain parameters are met, crew hours can be exceed by [10%].

The aviation industry have the a bunch of exemptions for curfews and landing rights too for emergencies

 

[Franky]

What an absurd comparison

No - just reality….

 

[theonewhojumps]

No - just reality….

Yes, definitely absurd. They are not military and as such, the reality is that they do not exceed crew duty hours, in cases such as a diversion to an airport for a medical emergency.

 

[burmans]

Someone on another forum was on the plane - sounds like a right PITA getting the visas

I’ve just been to Baku, getting the e-visa wasn’t that hard but took 3 days, they aren’t fast.

 

[burmans]

Not so much the incovenience factor - I reckon there's an argument there's a potential safety issue leaving 400 Aussies stranded in a foreign country they didn't expect to be dropped into, and where the airline has no direct oversight as to their welfare.

Having just been there I can assure you Azerbaijan is extremely safe!

 

[readyone]

Having just been there I can assure you Azerbaijan is extremely safe!

I'm sure it is, but things go wrong even in the safest of countries. My point is around the potential for mishap when you throw a bunch of tired and frustrated people into a strange environment where you (as the airline) have little control and no presence on the ground.

Even in the Virgin example where passengers had to ultimately sleep in the airport, they were reportedly in the process of preparing the aircraft to fly when the issue of crew hours put a stop to it. I just wonder how much consideration is given towards the safety and well-being of the offloaded passengers in these situations.

 

[theonewhojumps]

I'm sure it is, but things go wrong even in the safest of countries. My point is around the potential for mishap when you throw a bunch of tired and frustrated people into a strange environment where you (as the airline) have little control and no presence on the ground.

Even in the Virgin example where passengers had to ultimately sleep in the airport, they were reportedly in the process of preparing the aircraft to fly when the issue of crew hours put a stop to it. I just wonder how much consideration is given towards the safety and well-being of the offloaded passengers in these situations.

And if there is an accident because the crew is fatigued? It’s a lot safer to be sleeping in an airport than jumping down the slide from the top deck of an A380 in an evacuation. There is a reason why there are duty limits for crew.

 

[XWu]

Stupid question but it’s a 13.5hr flight between LHR and SIN, so I would assume there should be 2 sets of crews including pilots to make the flight legal for fatigue management? If so then where is the second crew?

 

[Warragul]

Stupid question but it’s a 13.5hr flight between LHR and SIN, so I would assume there should be 2 sets of crews including pilots to make the flight legal for fatigue management? If so then where is the second crew?

All the crew have the same sign in time, so the clock ticks the same presumedly. I believe QF crews normally consist of 1 captain, 2 First Officers and 1 Second Officer, so not quite 2 sets of crew in any event.

 

[AIRwin]

jumping down the slide

Such a coincidence with your handle

 

[Quickstatus]

There was what appears to be a serious medical emergency which people here seem to be ignoring. Ignoring other considerations GYD appears to be the closest airport. Going to DXB would be similar but that would require clearance from Iranian airspace. Other considerations include an A380 capable airport, advice by the ground medical advisory team,

Flight hours are strictly governed by CAA
I think it's 18hrs + i think there is possibility of extending a bit at pilots discretion.
(Its actually a lot more complicated than that)

So the typical LHR-SIN takes 14:30hrs
The diversion cost 3.5hrs
That would be 18hrs If they landed and immediately departed for SIN. However, they parked at a remote stand and would have to wait for stairs to arrive at the airport, wait for sick passenger to be transported off. Let's say GYD was super efficient and it took 2 hrs

Im saying 2 hrs based on my previous experience with a LAX-MEL with non medical diversion to SYD due to fog in MEL - in that case 2hrs ground time- landing at remote stand, stairs to arrive, bus to arrive, 5pax disembarking, refuel take off. But the aircraft is in GYD not SYD where QF has a major presence. If they then departed they would arrive in SIN at the 20hr mark. So they have already exceeded to 18hr limit and even with additional "pilot discretion additional time". The thing about pilots discretion is that it is not for anyone to demand that.

But remember the duty time clock starts ticking in LHR not at takeoff but approx 1:30hr prior.

So they would be out of hours maybe somewhere over Bay of Bengal with the 18hr limit

I'll stay overnight in Baku thanks very much. Never been there. Would be an interesting place to visit. Might even say to QF, I'm staying a few more days and I'll find my own way back. Maybe GYD-DOH-SYD or similar

 

[readyone]

Interesting article here on pilot flight duty period (FDP) for anyone interested

How Will Qantas Manage Its Pilot Duty Times On Project Sunrise Flights?

Flights from Australia to London and New York will take 20-plus hours.

simpleflying.com

 

[offshore171]

Not so much the incovenience factor - I reckon there's an argument there's a potential safety issue leaving 400 Aussies stranded in a foreign country they didn't expect to be dropped into, and where the airline has no direct oversight as to their welfare.

This I think is a valid concern.

I am however wondering why don’t they land at ISB which is capable of handling an A380, and Pakistan has been known to accomodate medical emergency landing at ISB and KHI in recent years

Pakistan? Not unless there's 3 engines out and they are losing the 4th.

Pakistan

Australian Government travel advice for Pakistan. Understand the risks, safety, laws and contacts.

www.smartraveller.gov.au

An airline shouldn't be dumping passengers where they face danger or potential for persecution. Passengers on the flight who are for example, LGB or Jewish face a realistic possibility of persecution in Pakistan. It only takes one tinpot local official to make an innocent traveller's life hell. Qantas can't be throwing passengers into harms way.

In a cohort of 400pax on an A380, there's quite likely to be some that fit into high risk categories in such a country.

 

[iflyineconomy]

I'm sure it is an annoying issue and things wouldn't be going easily but surely people can have some compassion that it was required for the persons health. Baku is a beautiful place and some amazing hotels, extremely safe.

I also sympathize with the crew who were probably the only Qantas representatives on the ground for some time!

 

[Mwenenzi]

Not so much the inconvenience factor - I reckon there's an argument there's a potential safety issue leaving 400 Aussies stranded in a foreign country they didn't expect to be dropped into, and where the airline has no direct oversight as to their welfare.

Will not all be "Aussies". Will be many with other passports

QF would have considered alternatives. After all not the first QF rodeo for this airport

 

[dairyfloss]

I sometimes wonder - after seeing the mayhem from these events - what the costs might be of having the means to deal with such medical episodes in the air? I guess this wouldn't come cheap, but if it could be done, and it reduced the instances of medical diversion like this by a significant measure (or in full), then perhaps the investment would be less than the cost of disruptions, service recovery and/or insurance premiums as they currently deal with.

Maybe a question for the medicos on here - If an airline wanted to do this, would it be possible to carry the necessary equipment and personnel on all flights of a certain duration or routing, to treat, stabilise and monitor a patient through to the intended or at least a more preferred destination? What would it take to achieve that, or is this simply a non-starter?

Cheers,
Matt.

 

[Quickstatus]

crew who were probably the only Qantas representatives on the ground for some time!

In many airports that QF operates to regularly, the "QF representatives" are contracted local people.

what the costs might be of having the means to deal with such medical episodes in the air?

Anything is possible
You can turn the A380 into an emergency department with 1 specialist emergency physician, 1 nurse, Xray machine, pathology processing machines, operating table, mechanical ventilator, all the emergency drugs, medical pumps, etc etc etc, blood bank

Thats why ambulances are not emergency departments on wheels
yeah nah...

 

[dylarr]

9 News reporting that the aircraft was due for routine maintenance in Singapore which seems to have added more complexity as well.

Out of cycles? I find it intriguing how they’ve cut it so fine that there’s no allowance for a divert.

The plane was due for routine maintenance in Singapore, but those checks will now be carried out in Baku, with a specialist A380 engineer being flown in from London.

Hundreds stranded after Qantas jet forced to divert

www.9news.com.au