SHAME Virgin -- Memo to the brass - COVID is still out there. [Wear Masks!]

[ferntree]

You are trying to present me with false exclusive alternatives., the old "straw man" argument.

Optimal mask protection requires that everyone in a certain environment be masked. That is why the mandate is that everyone on the plane should be masked. If I am the only person to wear a mask the main benefit is that others are given a high degree of protection from me, it actually gives me relatively less protection from them. Hence the need for everyone to be masked.

For a more comprehensive information on what government actually says:

Will a face mask protect me from COVID-19?

Masks work. Read on to see studies and real-world examples showing how effective masks can be.

www.health.qld.gov.au

 

[andye]

You are trying to present me with false exclusive alternatives., the old "straw man" argument.

Optimal mask protection requires that everyone in a certain environment be masked. That is why the mandate is that everyone on the plane should be masked. If I am the only person to wear a mask the main benefit is that others are given a high degree of protection from me, it actually gives me relatively less protection from them. Hence the need for everyone to be masked.

For a more comprehensive information on what government actually says:

Will a face mask protect me from COVID-19?

Masks work. Read on to see studies and real-world examples showing how effective masks can be.

www.health.qld.gov.au

I do feel comfortable seeing (unmasked) covid patients when wearing a well-fitting N95 and eye protection.
I'd strongly consider this to people who feel vulnerable mixing with the general public at present.
I just don't think we are going to get back to widespread effective mask wearing whatever the effectiveness of surgical/cloth

 

[Quickstatus]

Are we still banging on about mask wearing?

If we want to talk about optimal mask protection then the only mask that makes sense is a properly fitted N95. AND it cannot be removed unless the person is removed from the area that requires mask wearing - this means outside the airplane. This idea of mask wearing on airplanes but can take mask off to eat and drink makes no sense at all. And dont' touch face while mask is on

The current "mandate" on aircraft, and public transportation is not optimal.

IMO there is no point wearing masks on airplanes if 1) not wearing N95 or not wearing it correctly and 2) taking the mask off to eat/drink in the environment where mask wearing is required

Announcement: Covid not only still out there, but here to stay. Politicians know that their police enforcement of mask wearing cannot be sustained. Time to move on.

 

[ferntree]

... the only mask that makes sense is a properly fitted N95. AND it cannot be removed unless the person is removed from the area that requires mask wearing ...-

That is undoubtedly the gold standard, but it's not a case of all or nothing:

Masks protect against COVID-19, but which mask is best?

With face masks once again mandatory in indoor settings, which mask is best?

hmri.org.au

 

[Quickstatus]

That is undoubtedly the gold standard, but it's not a case of all o nothing

Well, once you start making adjustments/reductions in the standard to suit particular circumstances, you might as well not have a standard.

Covid is carried in an airborne aerosol. Only N95 can make a difference in this situation. I have always maintained that anything else is just for show.

This idea that any mask is better than none is a fallacy. If any mask is better than none, then why not go to an N95 because it is better than non 95 masks. and if already there, go the whole distance and say mask on and don't touch it for the entire flight. Add in face shield because that has been shown to be beneficial.

Forcing people to do uncomfortable things is the quickest way to ensuring they wont follow the rules. The politicians have realised they can only force people with police enforcement to wear a mask for a short time.

If you want the optimum condition, wear an N95 yourself and a face shield and don't take it off the entire flight. Because in a hospital with a sick covid patient that is what the nurses and drs do to protect themselves.

 

[ferntree]

I have no idea, of course, what your qualifications are in this sub ject(and I am NOT being sarcastic ... for all I know you might well be a thoracic surgeon) but we must agree to disagree. The evidence that I have studied (including that which I have quoted) seems to disagree with you.

 

[Vic]

I have no idea, of course, what your qualifications are in this sub ject(and I am NOT being sarcastic ... for all I know you might well be a thoracic surgeon) but we must agree to disagree. The evidence that I have studied (including that which I have quoted) seems to disagree with you.

Well actually an N95 is a case of all... The N95, properly fitted, filters the air you inhale (and exhale) sufficient to remove the virus. So yes, if you wear an N95 mask you are protected regardless of the actions of others.

This situation is reflected in the very low transmission of covid between staff and patients in a hospital. BTW I been in the covid clinic a number of times, all patients unmask - BUT I'm in full PPE. No issues.

In terms of general mask wearing with cloth or surgical masks, your protecting others, not yourself. That's why you need widespread mask use in that situation to get protection.

 

[JohnK]

Announcement: Covid not only still out there, but here to stay. Politicians know that their police enforcement of mask wearing cannot be sustained. Time to move on.

The time to move on is not yet right. Still a lot of education (and enforcement) needed and people need to understand there's more to life than feeding their selfishness.

Covid still out there and here to stay. We need to learn and not make the mistakes we did with influenza and other viruses.

Death is not acceptable. Find ways to minimise risk. Protect each other.

 

[Quickstatus]

That's why you need widespread mask use in that situation to get protection.

And with that comes people who want to make others wear a mask as a mandate. Easier isn't it to personally wear an N95 so it does not matter what others do?

 

[ferntree]

And with that comes people who want to make others wear a mask as a mandate. Easier isn't it to personally wear an N95 so it does not matter what others do?

I prefer to put my trust in what the AMA have to say.

 

[drron]

You are trying to present me with false exclusive alternatives., the old "straw man" argument.

Optimal mask protection requires that everyone in a certain environment be masked. That is why the mandate is that everyone on the plane should be masked. If I am the only person to wear a mask the main benefit is that others are given a high degree of protection from me, it actually gives me relatively less protection from them. Hence the need for everyone to be masked.

For a more comprehensive information on what government actually says:

Will a face mask protect me from COVID-19?

Masks work. Read on to see studies and real-world examples showing how effective masks can be.

www.health.qld.gov.au

So why has Japan now got record numbers of covid cases when they are amongst the highest percentage of mask wearers on this planet?
And they are slightly ahead of Australia in doses of vaccine per 100 population -233 in Japan -225 in Australia.

 

[stm1sydney]

Death is not acceptable.

Arguments like this don't really do it for me. It's just emotional blackmail in the absence of strong evidence that the benefits of the mandate/lockdown/restriction/whatever exceed its costs. Facts over feelings please.

Even Fauci, who has access to all the evidence, stated privately in emails that masks are not effective. The Denmark study seems to be the only serious, non-politicised, non-conflicted study in the covid era, and it said not effective.

 

[Quickstatus]

AMA

Sure, but remember, a lot of very respected Drs don’t have membership to the AMA

 

[drron]

Sure, but remember, a lot of very respected Drs don’t have membership to the AMA

And many AMA members don't agree with what is said by their leaders.

 

[jakeseven7]

And many AMA members don't agree with what is said by their leaders.

200% - some of them are great, some of them are complete crackpots.

 

[Quickstatus]

Death is not acceptable

I know what you mean, but despite all medical advances the mortality of the human race remains 100%

 

[ferntree]

Anybody can selectively cherry pick evidence. As one with absolutely no medical qualifications myself (like, I suspect, most of the contributors to this thread) it seems to me that it makes more sense to give most weight to those most qualified in this field (the AMA).

 

[Vic]

I prefer to put my trust in what the AMA have to say.

What does the AMA say? Sorry if I've missed it in thread.

Personally, I'd prefer to depend on virologists for my advice, or even better an Occupational Hygienist. Occupational Hygienists know the most about protection against airborne contaminants and hazards.

edit: just read you other post. I don't agree that AMA are the most qualified. There are plenty of alternative medical specialities and even other occupations that are more qualified than a general association for doctors.

 

[drron]

Anybody can selectively cherry pick evidence. As one with absolutely no medical qualifications myself (like, I suspect, most of the contributors to this thread) it seems to me that it makes more sense to give most weight to those most qualified in this field (the AMA).

The AMA is the political arm of the medical profession not the clinical arm so are no way the most qualified to talk about masks and covid.

 

[JohnK]

Arguments like this don't really do it for me. It's just emotional blackmail in the absence of strong evidence that the benefits of the mandate/lockdown/restriction/whatever exceed its costs. Facts over feelings please.

Even Fauci, who has access to all the evidence, stated privately in emails that masks are not effective. The Denmark study seems to be the only serious, non-politicised, non-conflicted study in the covid era, and it said not effective.

Why emotional blackmail?

If someone has the flu or covid and passes it on to someone who ends up dying or has serious complications how can the person infected wash their hands and say tough luck?

I don't have an answer but all I keep saying is I almost died of chicken pox at 46 years old and I've had quite a few serious bouts of flu.

Sure you can blame me for not getting chicken pox as a child or vaccinations not available in the 70's but there should not be a single child in Australia not having up to date vaccinations especially chicken pox just because their parents don't believe in vaccinations for whatever reason you can think of making up.

Decisions should have consequences. The same should apply to covid. Even 1 death needs to be investigated and measures put in place to keep people safe. You have a right not to wear a mask or not vaccinate but I also have a right to be safe from harm.

The measures don't need to be draconian but there to protect innocent people.