Why I am ditching QF F/J longhaul, despite loving it.

[juddles]

Status is a huge factor as well- flying J as WP compared to PS is very different in terms of treatment IME

I don't think I can agree with this. One would assume that having status would influence things (positively) but in this discussion about bad staff, I really think this is not the case. I truly believe that most staff (other than CSM's) do not really have any idea or care factor regarding status.

On many an occasion, flying J (highest cabin on many flights) and as a P1, staff have made such simple things as a request for a bottle of water a painful exercise. I truly believe that for many staff not only do they not now a person's status, but I actually suspect very strongly they do not even know what the various status levels are.

 

[travellerqff]

I truly believe that most staff (other than CSM's) do not really have any idea or care factor regarding status.

I agree. But I’ve seen the training module where new cabin crew learn the QFF program in depth along with the status levels of both QF and OW, which are included in an exam.

But onboard, unless all crew have read the manifest, they’re probably clueless about who’s who and perhaps have forgotten the differences between the levels, or in what order they flow, or like you said, don’t even care.

Friends who work in QF customer service positions have told me “..we’re told to give Platinums/Emeralds whatever they want to keep them happy.”

 

[TonyHancock]

But this comes down to a preference between soft and hard product. For me on long haul its hard product every time.

Yep. I am a misanthrope so empathy has never been my strong point, consequently I can not even begin to imagine a different view to this.

 

[drron]

Whilst firming up our trips for this year both mrsdrron and I have noticed that the occasional restaurant or hotel have turned off wifi access in their dining places.I think this is a great idea.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Status is a huge factor as well- flying J as WP compared to PS is very different in terms of treatment IME

we have flown J, as a silver, gold and platinum and haven’t noticed any difference, apart from access to seating pre flight.

 

[RichardMEL]

This is such a variable and, I would say, very specific to every individual as to what good service is, or staff attitudes. and even the same staff can provide differing service on different trips based on any number of factors.

I feel it's not fair to tar a group with the broad brush such as "senior" cabin crew.. some can be dreadful or seem lazy or "over it" (or "past it"!) while others can be amazing due to years of experience of giving great and personal service.

I'd also say what they have to work with ie the soft product, meal plans, even aspects of the duty roster(who gets breaks when, for example) can affect things. You can have the best crew but if they have very little to work with product wise it could come across as poor service.

Re the United "Prison Matrons" as they used to be referred to back in the day. Been there.. experienced that... by the same token had a number of UA flights in J and F with 40 year vetrans who came from Pan Amm and were absolutely amazingly good.

QF F I've had some sensational crews, while on other flights some members have "rubbed me up the wrong way" a bit .. we're all human.

At the end of the day we can (and should) make or choices based on whatever is the priirity or priorities to us, and what works best - if it be based on poor hard product, reputation, OTP or "crew issues" - these are all factors (along with schedule and price obviously).

At the end of the day there's nothing wrong with these choices.

 

[juddles]

This is such a variable and, I would say, very specific to every individual as to what good service is, or staff attitudes. and even the same staff can provide differing service on different trips based on any number of factors.

I feel it's not fair to tar a group with the broad brush such as "senior" cabin crew.. some can be dreadful or seem lazy or "over it" (or "past it"!) while others can be amazing due to years of experience of giving great and personal service.

I'd also say what they have to work with ie the soft product, meal plans, even aspects of the duty roster(who gets breaks when, for example) can affect things. You can have the best crew but if they have very little to work with product wise it could come across as poor service.

Re the United "Prison Matrons" as they used to be referred to back in the day. Been there.. experienced that... by the same token had a number of UA flights in J and F with 40 year vetrans who came from Pan Amm and were absolutely amazingly good.

QF F I've had some sensational crews, while on other flights some members have "rubbed me up the wrong way" a bit .. we're all human.

At the end of the day we can (and should) make or choices based on whatever is the priirity or priorities to us, and what works best - if it be based on poor hard product, reputation, OTP or "crew issues" - these are all factors (along with schedule and price obviously).

At the end of the day there's nothing wrong with these choices.

I understand and agree with what you write, but my concern is specific to Qantas. I hope I have not tarred a group due to their age, this was not my intention. I get the definite "feel" that senior (not "old", even though many may be) staff on QF are very secure in their jobs, and that due to the laws relating to dealing with them, that QF suffers a hardship weeding out those that have lost their customer service skills.

I also hear the notion that has been raised in response that the work environment can impact negatively on the staff's demeanour/success. I agree that could be a big issue.

Repeating myself, I just want QF to be the best it can be. This is not (for me) about just going elsewhere.

 

[Mattg]

Qantas are not alone in this. United used to be (?still are) notorious for having very senior (read 'older' - 60+) staff in their First cabins in Transpac - their coveted route. I experienced it once (well, twice - return flight) and it was almost surreal how they treated the pax with contempt by simply not giving a damn about anything much. Fortunately I've never experienced anything like it in QF premium cabins. I flew Air Canada a lot in the early 2010s and saw the same thing and I think BA is much the same in respects of the phenomena.

I would completely agree with this. When I flew UA trans-Atlantic last year, the (older) cabin crew in J ranged from average to terrible. I did the same flight last week in Y and had a genuinely engaged and enthusiastic younger crew. I actually enjoyed the Y flight better (although it was a day flight, so the lack of a J bed wasn't a problem).

As you say, the problem with United is there are so many "senior" crew bidding for the good routes and they also tend to work in the J cabin. And that's probably also the case with Qantas.

 

[pauly7]

I get the definite "feel" that senior (not "old", even though many may be) staff on QF are very secure in their jobs, and that due to the laws relating to dealing with them, that QF suffers a hardship weeding out those that have lost their customer service skills.
.

The process of performance management in Australia is arduous I’m the first to agree with that Well, it certainly is for those earning below a certain $ amount!

However it applies irrespective of ‘seniority’ and experience as long as you have completed your probationary period.

QF, VA, any Australian based airline would have to undergo same performance management process to get rid of someone with 2 years seniority as someone with 20 years seniority.

 

[Quickstatus]

That assumes it ever comes to Managements attention.

 

[andyhui01]

I haven't stepped onto a QF plane for more years than I can count for the same reason. I don't have anything against age of staff but the QF senior staff have a very similar attitude to the senior staff at Myer and David Jones. They have so much job security and seniority they can get away with anything. Asking for something simple feels like they are doing me a massive favour and I don't know if they realise but it is pretty obvious in their actions, tone and facial expressions. I only ever made it to SG but maybe even WP1's have the same experience.

Fly VA on the other hand, nothing is a chore. ie. My flight last week back from HKG, I was hungry but I needed sleep as well. Nothing on the express dining option suited me and I asked if I could just substitute one of the mains instead but I didn't want the whole dinner so I could get to sleep. Not only did the FA said not a problem, took the initiative to get the FA in the galley to put my meal in the oven immediately and came back to tell me it would take about 30 mins and made sure I was OK with that.

VA crews have bad days too but I believe when you have such a large number of staff who spend hours on end interacting and working in a small environment. The staff culture plays a huge deal. The junior staff who just got the seniority to work in J to LHR or LAX will follow the leader and just mimic the leaders attitude and hospitality.

 

[stm1sydney]

I love Qantas, as a concept

This. Most of us love Qantas as a concept. It's just the execution is so bad that we have moved on.

 

[Borisdog]

That assumes it ever comes to Managements attention.

It only needs to come to Supervisory level. Performance management in the first instance is an issue for the immediate Supervisor.

My own background as a Supervisor has been massively helpful to me when, as a customer, I’ve experienced less than adequate treatment at the hands of service providers. Note treatment, service is another matter, one that I take up with their boss.

 

[Quickstatus]

I understand that there are avenues for complaint or feedback.

However the standard that a passenger expects can be quite different to the job description . How that is reconciled is difficult in any service industry. The problem here as far as I’m concerned is one of expectations not necessarily individual crew performance below that of their job description. If a customer is unhappy, who is unreasonable? Maybe the airline, maybe the customer, maybe both...

One avenue is “customer feedback” and the other is the effect on business profitability. Profitability is actually written into the QF EBA - that the EBA flows from a profitable business in a midst of a high competitive environment.

It may be that some employees are not suited to this environment but they won’t/can’t move on. This is a hard nut to crack but I don’t think the overall problem is as obvious as due to some underperforming crew members.

 

[mrsterryn]

I think @juddles by the sheer bulk of his trips does have a benchmark on with to apply his reasoning
It would be interesting if others has similar perspectives from other classes again However on the same flight over and over again

 

[RichardMEL]

What concerns me is some generalisations being thrown about here.

I find many of the senior cabin staff at QF to be excellent... or maybe it is just that my expectations are so low?

In ANY service industry you get those who should have stepped away, or take a "the bare minimum required" attitude to jobs (or even less than)... I am sitting in the same building as some of these sorts of people as I type. Some people have such a great service culture, can do attitude or just fantastic people skills that interactions are always fantastic and quite genuine... and I'm not talking age as being a factor here.

I do understand what is being said here and the "Myer/DJ's culture" references are apt. Anyone seen how poorly those guys are doing these days? I certainly have come across a few of those and I can think of one in F on a flight some years back .. but to me that wa one individual while I can site examples of others who have been the exact opposite.

I do like Juddles' comment that he wants QF to be the best it can be... but like everyhere it's up to people.. both at the front lines, and higher up, to make it happen.

And as we know, QF finds consistency ... challenging

 

[Quickstatus]

or maybe it is just that my expectations are so low?

My only expectation with travel is the takeoff to landing ratio is 1.0 or leave home to arrive home is 1.0
Other than that I travel with no other expectations. I find that if expectations are reduced my travel is much more comfortable

I don’t think expectations can be any lower

 

[drron]

Although I agree quickstatus so far that ratio of departures and arrivals of 1.0 has been on all airlines I have used.

I have been thinking about it a lot and for me the most important for me in ditching QF has been the food and beverage service.
Disappointing menus.
Long wait before initial drinks and meals served-especially aggravating on a night flight.
Then waiting an age to clear table.On occasions then also clearing away the wine glass without asking when I have placed it separately in order to have a refill.

Not having my choice of meal regularly.Even worse being lied to about it.On one occasion mrsdrron wanted the salmon-it has run out,only to catch the FAs eating said meal in galley.Once flying back from NRT in J told I could only have a small or a large plate not both so I chose the latter but said I was disappointed not being able to have the cerviche to which the FA said if any left over I will bring one to you.Only this time it was I who noticed later the CSM eating the cerviche.Same flight when I asked what wines were on board-red or white was the answer.

Also I don't like ordering my breakfast the night before.I am conditioned to choosing my meal when it comes the time for that meal.Yes works for the crew but aren't pax the ones being served?Other airlines don't have to do this.

As to other issues-hard product.well as long as I can sleep well it is not of greatest importance.
Staff-most airlines have good and bad staff in much the same ratio but QF seems to have more that just lack enthusiasm for their job-but those are not in a majority.
Never have noted a difference in good service between young and old staff.

 

[Quickstatus]

Yes and how does a feedback to immediate higher up help when the higherup (say CSM) is the problem....

Cabin crew will still feed the chooks and turn off the light.....

 

[stm1sydney]

ditching QF has been the food and beverage service.
Disappointing menus.

But Neil's green salad is always worth the wait.