Ask The Pilot

[iRobbo]

On Saturday 5 November for a good deal of the morning the east west runway in SYD was the sole available due to wind. The latter was at 57 kilometres an hour gusting to 65kmh at one stage.

Is 07/25 only 50 per cent as efficient as having the two north south runways available, or is only being able to use the east west even worse because of unsuitability for 'super heavies' such as an A380 at close to maximum take off weight? Didn't one of our esteemed contributors opine previously - I can't find the post - that in most or many circumstances an A380 crew would not want to use the east west runway for takeoff?

Are cross movements (if there are any from aircraft taxiing) even more inefficient when the east west runway is the sole one in use?

What is the maximum number of hourly movements that can be achieved in practice (assuming a busy mix of international and domestic flights ranging from SAAB 340Bs up to A380s) with just 07/25 operating - is it fewer than 40 (which would be half of the permitted maximum of 80 an hour or 20 in any quarter hour period)?

It's hard to answer your post because of so many variables. In good weather, worlds best practice (Gatwick) can do 55 movements per hour to a single runway. The airport infrastructure and its procedures are optimised for it (it only has one runway strip). The different mix of aircraft utilising airports in Australia makes it difficult to replicate but can be done. I don't work in Sydney but they could easily make around 50 in most hours. The problems for 07/25 are, as you alluded to, aircraft that require 16/34, you then lose arrival slots as you make a gap for their departure (and depending on where they rotate, you lose departure slots). The weather also affects rates. So, there is no single number that answers you question as it all depends on the mix of arrivals and departures and non duty runway operations as well as weather conditions.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

I understand most aircraft types have a maximum X-Wind speeds for take-off and landing and/or maximum tailwind speeds for both landing and taking off. Many years ago doing a night VFR rating out of Canberra in a PA-28R during the middle of winter I was also made aware of a maximum wind speed for taxying. The runway configs for CBR are 35/17 and 30/12 which made things very interesting during the howling winter westerlys doing circuits at night. You could still have a reasonable x/wind no matter what runway you used. I do remember one very windy evening things got interesting with the ATIS and tower reporting the wind increasing to 260/35 gusting to 260/40. Using the rule of sixths that made the X Wind on RWY30 somewhere between 22kts-26kts which put me back on the ground in the PA-28R. For the evening airline arrivals into CBR on RWY35 it was all crosswind between 35-40kts. They all made uneventful landings.

The question is when you are faced with these situations where the X Wind is on the limit of your A380 / 737, etc and your flying into somewhere like CBR or WLG do you make an approach and if the x wind increases beyond the legal maximum allowed for the aircraft type during the final approach you simply go around and proceed to an alternate? Under what scenarios can the PIC accept the X Wind and do the approach and landing if it is on the limits or beyond the maximum X Wind allowed for the aircraft type?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Or 50' off the requested altitude. Same with the centreline...you may end up off it by a few feet, but no reason to aim anywhere but right on it.

I was fortunate to have Tom Dennis from the Airport Flying School in Canberra as my flying instructor. He was 'old school' and said you need to fly the plane like it was your own. He always made you fly the assigned altitude, heading, and speed and let you know it if you got out of whack. During the Instrument section of the PPL under the hood Tom would always be onto you about the importance of keeping the scan going. Any corrections you made had to be gentle as "smooth hands" will follow. It wasn't until I did my Twin IFR training out of Moorabbin a few years later with other instructors did I release the importance of Tom's mantra. I found if you didn't continually practice flying accurately you soon lost the "habit" making some single pilot IFR operations challenging. Even with an IFR rating and passing your annual instrument renewal and doing the minimum requirements to maintain currency I felt it wasn't enough to make you safe. I am very surprised to hear that nowadays you can have a Private IFR rating that allows for 2 yearly flight reviews.

 

[Quickstatus]

For the general aviation pilots out there:

How much is the cost of flying lessons in say a single engine these days?

 

[Awesom Andy]

For the general aviation pilots out there:

How much is the cost of flying lessons in say a single engine these days?

It can vary based on the flying school, the aerodrome/airport, and the aircraft. Although for someone who has never flown to obtaining a PPL, most would need at least 60 hours of flying. Adding on the cost of supplies and equipment (books, headset, etc), the cost of exams, and you most likely need to drive a fair distance to the school, you can easily hit $25-30k. And of course, you would still need to buy or hire a plane to fly in afterwards. Unless you really like flying, money is probably better spent on a masters degree at a tertiary education institution instead.

 

[AviatorInsight]

The question is when you are faced with these situations where the X Wind is on the limit of your A380 / 737, etc and your flying into somewhere like CBR or WLG do you make an approach and if the x wind increases beyond the legal maximum allowed for the aircraft type during the final approach you simply go around and proceed to an alternate? Under what scenarios can the PIC accept the X Wind and do the approach and landing if it is on the limits or beyond the maximum X Wind allowed for the aircraft type?

Thanks in advance.

Ahhh the old crosswind chestnut. This will basically depend whether the aircraft has a maximum demonstration limit. Or it is a hard maximum limitation, either imposed by the airline or by the aircraft manufacturer.

In the case of a demonstrated crosswind limit, this is the maximum that the test pilots could get on that given day. The aircraft could very well be capable of more, however, it also comes to the pilot's capabilities also.

For a maximum limit, it is exactly that. The maximum limit in which the aircraft is to be flown. Our company has a hard maximum limit, regardless if the pilots are able to handle more. If forecasts were to be such that the crosswind would exceed the maximum limit then yes I would most certainly carry an alternate. Thinking back to your IFR days, wind was certainly a consideration for the basis of carrying an alternate. The PIC can land beyond the maximum limit if he/she can back up the reasons for it should something go wrong, i.e. in an emergency would be a valid reason the aircraft could have an uncontained fire, etc.

 

[Boca68]

For the general aviation pilots out there:

How much is the cost of flying lessons in say a single engine these days?

Its not cheap. Most schools have packages on offer and they vary quite considerably. Most of the variance depends on the aircraft used and the location. I've done most of mine at a rural strip flying C182.

The course at a minimum requires the 60 hours total, I'm at about 44.5 having achieved RPL level at 32.5. Total cost is $28k+ , not counting incidentals which is about mid-range for my research. Have seen as low as 20k and as high as 33k. Its taken me about 14 months to get this far, most delays due to my travel . Hoping to achieve PPL around April next year.

 

[Awesom Andy]

The course at a minimum requires the 60 hours total, I'm at about 44.5 having achieved RPL level at 32.5. Total cost is $28k+ , not counting incidentals which is about mid-range for my research. Have seen as low as 20k and as high as 33k. Its taken me about 14 months to get this far, most delays due to my travel . Hoping to achieve PPL around April next year.

For the new comers, also check the costs if you require additional hours. Some students need a few extra hours, some don't, and there can be delays in progress due to all sort of different reasons. e.g. it took me a long time to get to my first solo as the crosswind was over the limit (for a first solo) every time I got myself to the airport for a few weeks. I could only go on weekends with my full time work, but by that stage, my crosswind landing skills was probably highly proficient for someone with only 20 hours in the logbook.

 

[747sp]

The other day i was fly to melbourne from sydney and the captain advised that he was flying as slowly as possible due to traffic delays. I was wondering what the range is between the top speed and the slowest speed ? I also wondered is it more fuel efficient in this circumstance to fly slower or fly a longer distance at a more economical speed?

 

[jb747]

The question is when you are faced with these situations where the X Wind is on the limit of your A380 / 737, etc and your flying into somewhere like CBR or WLG do you make an approach and if the x wind increases beyond the legal maximum allowed for the aircraft type during the final approach you simply go around and proceed to an alternate?

The answer isn't totally black and white. As long as the wind has a chance of being within the limits, then you'd pretty well always 'have a look', with the final decision being made at a couple of hundred feet. In Boeings, as long as the FMC shows a crosswind within the limits you can land. With Airbus, the tower report will take precedence over the FMC calculated wind.

Under what scenarios can the PIC accept the X Wind and do the approach and landing if it is on the limits or beyond the maximum X Wind allowed for the aircraft type?

Well, if you have a greater emergency, you can break just about any limit you like...but it had better be real. I'd hate to have to explain how I ran off the edge of the runway 'cos I was on a hot date.

There are many crosswind limits, on the same aircraft. Wet or dry. It will vary with the visibility. Some are called 'demonstrated' limits, whilst others are simply limits. Some airlines operate under the belief that their line pilots are at least as good as the Boeing/Airbus test pilots, and they choose to ignore the demonstrated limits. As those numbers are invariably uncomfortably high anyway, such operation is (in my opinion) foolish... QF operates to hard limits.

 

[jb747]

The other day i was fly to melbourne from sydney and the captain advised that he was flying as slowly as possible due to traffic delays. I was wondering what the range is between the top speed and the slowest speed ? I also wondered is it more fuel efficient in this circumstance to fly slower or fly a longer distance at a more economical speed?

The available speed range varies with weight and altitude. It can be as little as 10 knots, though normally on a domestic sector it will be more like 30 or so. If you need slower than is available, then you'll need to descend. You'd probably be most efficient at holding speed and about FL280. It won't be better to fly faster and further.

 

[jb747]

Its not cheap. Most schools have packages on offer and they vary quite considerably. Most of the variance depends on the aircraft used and the location. I've done most of mine at a rural strip flying C182.

The course at a minimum requires the 60 hours total, I'm at about 44.5 having achieved RPL level at 32.5. Total cost is $28k+ , not counting incidentals which is about mid-range for my research. Have seen as low as 20k and as high as 33k. Its taken me about 14 months to get this far, most delays due to my travel . Hoping to achieve PPL around April next year.

It's been mentioned before, but if you can arrange the time, money and accommodation, it's much better to do the training in larger tranches. You don't waste training time relearning things you've forgotten, and it gives much better consolidation. When I first learnt to fly I got from first flight to restricted licence in 3 months. Country airports are also a great idea, as they limit the time you waste flying to the training area.

 

[Boca68]

It's been mentioned before, but if you can arrange the time, money and accommodation, it's much better to do the training in larger tranches. You don't waste training time relearning things you've forgotten, and it gives much better consolidation. When I first learnt to fly I got from first flight to restricted licence in 3 months. Country airports are also a great idea, as they limit the time you waste flying to the training area.

Thanks jb747, i actually have read that here and being advised by others to do that.

Early January, planning a 3 to 4 week block of hours. Up to 20 hours in the block. Go beyond the minimum, because I know I need it. Then personal life takes precedence, getting married February, return to flight training March , planning for finals April. The future Mrs Boca68, is aware and grinds her teeth, but she loves flying as much as me. She just can't see why I'm spending a small fortune on this....

 

[ChrisGibbs]

During non daylight saving times YSSY allows a couple of early morning arrivals (between 0500 - 0600) prior to the end of curfew onto RWY 34L. These arrivals use 'zero reverse thrust'. This also happens during quiet times arrivals onto RWY34L. Under both scenarios the arriving aircraft can, subject to no aircraft departing off RWY 34L, roll through the intersection of RWY's 07/25 and exit RWY34L onto a taxiway left closest to Gate 9/10 for international arrivals and similarly to the right for domestic arrivals. Many years ago when QF were routing their 744 and A380 flights QF9/10 flights through SIN these arrivals into LHR would be between 0500 and 0600. Similarly they arrivals would also use 'zero reverse thrust'.

The question is, under the scenarios above, does ATC request jet arrivals to use 'zero reverse thrust' or is this mandated as part of the early morning arrival procedures into these airports? How is 'zero reverse thrust' selected? Can the PIC adjust the power of the reverse thrust or is it simply reverse thrust or no reverse thrust? With the roll through on RWY34L in YSSY is this something requested by the PIC on arrival or is it typically offered up by the TWR along with the landing clearance? As an aside I've noticed when the domestic guys on the 737's roll through to the end of RWY34L it sometimes appears the aircraft speed on the runaway may be a little excessive as the brakes get a bit of workout when looking to exit onto a taxiway to take you to the domestic terminal. I've also noticed for the last 12/24+ months the Dash 8's don't seem to use the roll through anymore when using RWY34L?. Is the roll through some the company can mandate that is rejected to safety concerns or do they leave it up to the PIC?

 

[AviatorInsight]

The question is does ATC request you to use 'zero reverse thrust' or is this mandated for arrivals at this time? I've noticed when the domestic guys on the 737's roll through to the end of RWY34L it seems as though the sometimes the speed may be a little more than anticipated as the brakes get a bit of workout when looking to exit onto a taxiway to take you to the domestic terminal. I've also noticed for the last 12+ months the Dash 8's don't seem to use the roll through anymore when using RWY34L?

Ok, so I think you mean idle reverse thrust not zero thrust. This is when the thrust blocker doors are actually in place redirecting the airflow out the side of the engines but the engines have not spooled up to increase the acceleration. A zero reverse thrust would be when no amount of reverse has been applied and the blocker doors remain stowed.

ATC do not request us to use 'zero' reverse thrust, if you're landing before curfew the law states that operators must "should not plan to land during the curfew period if the operator isaware that the landing would require reverse thrust greater than idle reversethrust; and the pilot of an aircraft landing at Sydney Airport during a curfew period shoulduse the minimum reverse thrust necessary for the safe landing of the aircraft. should not plan to land during the curfew period if the operator isaware that the landing would require reverse thrust greater than idle reversethrust; and the pilot of an aircraft landing at Sydney Airport during a curfew period shoulduse the minimum reverse thrust necessary for the safe landing of the aircraft. "

With the roll through on RWY34L in YSSY is this something you can request on arrival or is it typically offered up by the TWR along with your landing clearance?

During the quieter periods of the day, we can request a roll through to Golf to get quicker access to the bay. Or, if ATC are feeling nice they will sometimes give us the option of rolling through with the landing clearance.

How is 'zero reverse thrust' selected? Can you adjust the power of the reverse thrust?

Idle reverse thrust on the Boeing are selected into the first detent. Any further than that, and the engines start spooling up to create more deceleration. It's usually an all or nothing type of approach to selecting reverse.

 

[jb747]

During non daylight saving times YSSY allows a couple of early morning arrivals (between 0500 - 0600) prior to the end of curfew onto RWY 34L. These arrivals use 'zero reverse thrust'. This also happens during quiet times arrivals onto RWY34L. Under both scenarios the arriving aircraft can, subject to no aircraft departing off RWY 34L, roll through the intersection of RWY's 07/25 and exit RWY34L onto a taxiway left closest to Gate 9/10 for international arrivals and similarly to the right for domestic arrivals. Many years ago when QF were routing their 744 and A380 flights QF9/10 flights through SIN these arrivals into LHR would be between 0500 and 0600. Similarly they arrivals would also use 'zero reverse thrust'.

Operations with idle reverse are generally mandated at the airports that have shoulder noise issues. At some places (London) we'll try to use idle for any early movements, even if not required.

The question is, under the scenarios above, does ATC request jet arrivals to use 'zero reverse thrust' or is this mandated as part of the early morning arrival procedures into these airports? How is 'zero reverse thrust' selected? Can the PIC adjust the power of the reverse thrust or is it simply reverse thrust or no reverse thrust?

ATC doesn't tell us how to fly the aircraft. We're expected to know the rules, and to follow them. ATC are all about safe aircraft movements, not about policing noise policies.

Reverse thrust is selected by moving your hand over the top of the thrust levers, where there's another short set of levers which control the engines when in reverse. Picture of the 777 installation here: Boeing 777: Thrust Controls

Once you have touched down, and the thrust levers are closed, you reach over the top to the reverse thrust levers and pull them up. That takes you to what is called the interlock. This is where the engine cowls move into their reverse positions. Once they are there, the electronic locks on the reverse thrust levers are released, and you can pull the levers past the interlock, which causes the engines to spool up (in reverse). There is a full range of movement, and you can take anything from idle reverse (by not going past the interlock position) to full reverse. Full reverse is not the same as full power...the engines are limited to something around 85-90%.

We always go to the interlock (idle reverse). Any noise policy issues are covered by not going beyond that.

On the big engines, reverse thrust is a bit of a misnomer. There is very little reverse thrust. All that happens is that the cowls and blocker doors move in such a way as to blast the fan air radially out around the engine, and not let it pass out to the back as normally happens. The component of this vector that is forward is trivial. The core, hot air, is unaffected, and continues to produce forward thrust. The overall effect of reverse might be a few thousand pounds of thrust, but the major contributions are the cancellation of the core's forward thrust, and also the blast effect on wet runways which helps braking.

There's always a set of rules in the manuals with regard to the use of idle reverse. In our case we have to have a certain level of braking available (i.e. the runway can't be slippery), no faults that affect landing performance, and the runway performance calculation must have be done without reverse thrust. An airline may simply mandate a certain level of excess length. It will be allowed for somehow in the calculations though. Because we always go to the idle reverse position, it means that if something goes wrong during the landing, full reverse is instantly available if needed.

With the roll through on RWY34L in YSSY is this something requested by the PIC on arrival or is it typically offered up by the TWR along with the landing clearance?

Tower knows where you are going, and will offer a roll through if they can.

As an aside I've noticed when the domestic guys on the 737's roll through to the end of RWY34L it sometimes appears the aircraft speed on the runaway may be a little excessive as the brakes get a bit of workout when looking to exit onto a taxiway to take you to the domestic terminal. I've also noticed for the last 12/24+ months the Dash 8's don't seem to use the roll through anymore when using RWY34L?. Is the roll through some the company can mandate that is rejected to safety concerns or do they leave it up to the PIC?

It's always hard to judge things from the cabin. The braking comes as a surprise, as the aircraft has been rolling along for quite some time with no braking at all, and then even moderate will feel extreme. Carbon brakes also respond better to fairly heavy applications rather than very light but long period braking.

Roll through isn't something that companies would say much about, as it's to their benefit. I can't see a reason to knock back a roll through.

 

[flychrisfly]

ATC doesn't tell us how to fly the aircraft. We're expected to know the rules, and to follow them. ATC are all about safe aircraft movements, not about policing noise policies.

Who does police the noise policies? How does a pilot learn about non-ATC policies for a new airport, or for a change in policy at a known airport?

 

[docjames]

Is idle reverse still used if the runway is "contaminated" (in Syd i guess that would be wet but LHR i guess would include snow/ice) or are you required to use "maximum braking"? If so, would that preclude curfew "fringe" landings (if you know the runway is wet)?

I'm sorry if i haven't phrased that particularly well, but hopefully you get what i mean!

(I'll add that my personal opinion is the curfew should be removed but that's probably a discussion for another thread....)

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Once you have touched down, and the thrust levers are closed, you reach over the top to the reverse thrust levers and pull them up. That takes you to what is called the interlock. This is where the engine cowls move into their reverse positions. Once they are there, the electronic locks on the reverse thrust levers are released, and you can pull the levers past the interlock, which causes the engines to spool up (in reverse). There is a full range of movement, and you can take anything from idle reverse (by not going past the interlock position) to full reverse. Full reverse is not the same as full power...the engines are limited to something around 85-90%.

We always go to the interlock (idle reverse). Any noise policy issues are covered by not going beyond that

Assuming the speed brakes are armed at what point in the sequence above are the speed brakes automatically deployed? wrt QF30 where you lost control of the starboard aileron did you also lose use of the Speed Brakes and if so how did that impact the landing (if at all).

 

[jb747]

Who does police the noise policies? How does a pilot learn about non-ATC policies for a new airport, or for a change in policy at a known airport?

We carry lots of paperwork...or at least we used to, it's all on the iPad now. The company will have books of information on any airports that you're likely to use. That will include information relevant to flying, as well as information like refuelling contractors. The Jeppesen charts have reams of information, and include any specific noise procedures. Places that are sensitive, like London, have automatic noise monitor stations, a bit like speed cameras on the road, and in a similar manner the bill comes through to the company.

Changes to procedures will generally appear as NOTAMs.