FEDGOV wants to collect frequent flyer points

[Hvr]

[h=1]Canberra wants to collect frequent flyer points[/h]
Frequent flyer points are already so popular in Australia that they are like a second currency – and now the federal government is looking to get in on the game.


In a draft discussion paper in relation to an upcoming tender for $377 million of annual air travel spending, the government has expressed interested in receiving the pool of frequent flyer points earned by its travellers to be used at a department or agency level – presumably for redemptions on future flights to cut travel costs.


At present, travellers do not receive frequent flyer points when on government business but they do receive status credits that can help accrue perks like lounge access. The idea up for discussion would allow the government to accrue the frequent flyer points on behalf of its flyers – a move that would lead to an added cost for the airlines involved.

Yes I amended the headline to better reflect the story. Am so very glad my work flying days are over.

 

[doctau]

I thought the Govt got cheaper fares as a combination of the amount of travel (as a large company would) and not giving fliers points. Surely if the airlines started giving points (regardless of who to), they'd increase the cost of fares to match.

 

[burmans]

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I didn't think the reason they didn't give FF points was just because they hate their staff but as an offset against super cheap fares.

 

[brett-au]

If status was enough to get an upgrade once in a blue moon, this would be fine. But on the flip side, having to book special "upgradable fares" means even if you have the points you can't use them. So perhaps its lose-lose no matter which way you go.

 

[Danger]

The big question I would like answered is who actually owns the frequent flyer points? Is it the person paying for the fare or the person who accrues them through bums in seats?

I thought the Govt got cheaper fares as a combination of the amount of travel (as a large company would) and not giving fliers points. Surely if the airlines started giving points (regardless of who to), they'd increase the cost of fares to match.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I didn't think the reason they didn't give FF points was just because they hate their staff but as an offset against super cheap fares.

I have stood alongside a very senior Qantas executive at a previous Qantas coughtail party for parliamentarians and engaged in conversation with the exec and colleagues. Clear as day that senior exec said it costs Qantas more to ensure the frequent flyer points don't post to a person's account then it does to actually give the points.

Yes, it was touted as a cost saving measure but in reality that's not the case. It was a move by former Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner who, as a parting middle fingers to his colleagues and staff, removed the earning of frequent flyer points several years ago. It followed media reports that politicians had accrued millions of frequent flyer points 'on the taxpayers' purse'. I did the sums at the time. Dividing the total number of points earned across all 226 federal parliamentarians gave an average of just over 70k points per MP - not even enough for a return Business flight coast to coast.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I must admit to believing the non-point accrual was not so much to get cheaper fares, but to remove a point of media criticism.

 

[burmans]

I have stood alongside a very senior Qantas executive at a previous Qantas coughtail party for parliamentarians and engaged in conversation with the exec and colleagues. Clear as day that senior exec said it costs Qantas more to ensure the frequent flyer points don't post to a person's account then it does to actually give the points.

Yes, it was touted as a cost saving measure but in reality that's not the case. It was a move by former Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner who, as a parting middle fingers to his colleagues and staff, removed the earning of frequent flyer points several years ago. It followed media reports that politicians had accrued millions of frequent flyer points 'on the taxpayers' purse'. I did the sums at the time. Dividing the total number of points earned across all 226 federal parliamentarians gave an average of just over 70k points per MP - not even enough for a return Business flight coast to coast.

Not sure why it's so hard to avoid points earning, surely you just allocate a fare bucket that doesn't earn points!

Nevertheless I believe the latter is entirely possible, much that governments do is about the appearance more than the actual facts.

 

[Hvr]

Not sure why it's so hard to avoid points earning, surely you just allocate a fare bucket that doesn't earn points!

Nevertheless I believe the latter is entirely possible, much that governments do is about the appearance more than the actual facts.

The difficulty is that the fares do earn status credits and there are several classes of fares because of flexibility requirements. Would almost need a whole new series of fare classes just for government fares.

 

[kalboy]

Last year my partner received a QF ticket per the WA Govt PATS (patient assisted transport scheme) on the accompanying email I recall there was a statement that passengers should not claim FF points.

 

[get me outta here]

As far as I remember, QF not giving some public servants points (some did still get them, it depended which department they worked in), goes way back. Those that did get points were supposedly to use them for flights, however, the necessary flexibility or spontaneity needed around meetings meant that in reality those points were not always able to be used for work. Parliamentarian perks are a lot bigger than FF points as you point out. I think the whole thing was about "the optics".

Yes, it was touted as a cost saving measure but in reality that's not the case. It was a move by former Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner who, as a parting middle fingers to his colleagues and staff, removed the earning of frequent flyer points several years ago. It followed media reports that politicians had accrued millions of frequent flyer points 'on the taxpayers' purse'. I did the sums at the time. Dividing the total number of points earned across all 226 federal parliamentarians gave an average of just over 70k points per MP - not even enough for a return Business flight coast to coast.

 

[Hvr]

As far as I remember, QF not giving some public servants points (some did still get them, it depended which department they worked in), goes way back. Those that did get points were supposedly to use them for flights, however, the necessary flexibility or spontaneity needed around meetings meant that in reality those points were not always able to be used for work. Parliamentarian perks are a lot bigger than FF points as you point out. I think the whole thing was about "the optics".

Some more information on FF points from the APSC site: Australian Public Service Commission - Sect 4.10 Using Commonwealth resources

 

[Renato1]

Some more information on FF points from the APSC site: Australian Public Service Commission - Sect 4.10 Using Commonwealth resources

I was working for the Federal Government when FF points became an issue. Basically, by the Constitution the government can't take your property away from you without compensting you, so who do the FF points belong to?

At the time, my department was saying you couldn't collect FF points on flights they had paid for - but they had no way of knowing whether or not you had joined the FF point scheme (which cost money back then) and whether you had received the points - so people were collecting the points regardless.

Then the goverment found someone who it somehow found out he had been collecting points, and took him to court in Canberra. Instead of him saying in court that,
a. the points were his property not the goverments, and
b. that the points would not exist bar for the money he had expended on joining the scheme, and thus did not belong to the Government, and
c. that the points were a transaction between two third parties that had nothing to do with the Government, which the government plainly accepted was the case with meals served on planes - since one still received a meal allowance despite one getting meals and breakfast on the plane (the government did not claim it's employees should regurgitate the meals if they go meal allowances)
he instead, went to court and plead guilty - copped a big fine by the judge (even though he hadn't stolen anything the government could claim caused it to lose money), and was punished in his job.

And that set the legal precedent for the Government owning the points that would otherwise not have existed and to which it was not entitled.

I have often had the opinion that the chap would have been better off with a different lawyer.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Danger]

I was working for the Federal Government when FF points became an issue. Basically, by the Constitution the government can't take your property away from you without compensting you, so who do the FF points belong to?

At the time, my department was saying you couldn't collect FF points on flights they had paid for - but they had no way of knowing whether or not you had joined the FF point scheme (which cost money back then) and whether you had received the points - so people were collecting the points regardless.

Then the goverment found someone who it somehow found out he had been collecting points, and took him to court in Canberra. Instead of him saying in court that,
a. the points were his property not the goverments, and
b. that the points would not exist bar for the money he had expended on joining the scheme, and thus did not belong to the Government, and
c. that the points were a transaction between two third parties that had nothing to do with the Government, which the government plainly accepted was the case with meals served on planes - since one still received a meal allowance despite one getting meals and breakfast on the plane (the government did not claim it's employees should regurgitate the meals if they go meal allowances)
he instead, went to court and plead guilty - copped a big fine by the judge (even though he hadn't stolen anything the government could claim caused it to lose money), and was punished in his job.

And that set the legal precedent for the Government owning the points that would otherwise not have existed and to which it was not entitled.

I have often had the opinioin that the chap would have been better off with a different lawyer.
Regards,
Renato

I'd be interested in reading that case if you happen to have a link or reference.

One of the elementary questions new or inexperienced frequent flyer program members ask is whether he or she earns the points if buying a ticket for someone else. Of course, bar no exemption I'm aware of it, he or she does not; the points belong to the person who undertakes the flight. I'd like to know how an argument can be made to the contrary in order to support a possible future move by the government.

 

[Renato1]

I'd be interested in reading that case if you happen to have a link or reference.

One of the elementary questions new or inexperienced frequent flyer program members ask is whether he or she earns the points if buying a ticket for someone else. Of course, bar no exemption I'm aware of it, he or she does not; the points belong to the person who undertakes the flight. I'd like to know how an argument can be made to the contrary in order to support a possible future move by the government.

Unfortunately, that case was in pre-internet days (late 80s or early 90s) and it was written in one of those public service things that used to get passed around before the internet came along. I still can't fathom how the Government could have won the case when it plainly had suffered no loss, and even if a judge ruled that they owned the points, there was no way to transfer the points to the government.

So sad for public servants, but good for the rest of the community, else points would have had to have been devalued from all the government flights.

Cheers,
Renato

 

[JohnK]

The big question I would like answered is who actually owns the frequent flyer points? Is it the person paying for the fare or the person who accrues them through bums in seats?

This question has come up a few times on AFF.

For me the answer is very simple. No frequent flyer SCs/points. No can travel.

I know it is not so simple for some.

 

[Himeno]

If the government wants to earn points for its employees travel, then it should join Qantas Aquire.

 

[Hvr]

And a follow up story that is sadly misinformed about benefits:

[h=1]Government missed out on about 250 million frequent flyer points in one year[/h]
The Australian government could have claimed more than 250 million frequent flyer points in 2013-14 had it been able to collect the points of public servants travelling on official business.


Had the government used those points to purchase $100 Woolworths Group gift cards, department bosses could have been unleashed on a $1.6 million shopping spree.


Currently, public servants and officials do not receive frequent flyer points when travelling on government business but instead accrue status credits for perks like travel lounges.

My bolding, anybody with even a vague knowledge, (or basic research skills) of FF programs would know the statement was wrong.

 

[russ]

he instead, went to court and plead guilty ... And that set the legal precedent for the Government owning the points that would otherwise not have existed and to which it was not entitled.

The idea that a person's plea would create a precedent sounds implausible to me. I suspect it is an urban myth.

 

[muppet]

And a follow up story that is sadly misinformed about benefits:



My bolding, anybody with even a vague knowledge, (or basic research skills) of FF programs would know the statement was wrong.

What's wrong with that claim, Hvr?
Was the exact situation for all my travel. Most recent was June this year.

 

[Hvr]

What's wrong with that claim, Hvr?
Was the exact situation for all my travel. Most recent was June this year.

Currently, public servants and officials do not receive frequent flyer points when travelling on government business but instead accrue status credits for perks like travel lounges.

The way it is written makes it seem that you only get SCs if you don't get FF points whereas we all know that for all except public servants you get both.