What Happens if a 777 Loses An Engine? Or Both?

[NM]

And remember that ETOPS requirements are very complex. For example, if the aircraft is heavy (carrying lots of fuel and cargo), its likely that it can't maintain a high altitude on a single engine, so may need to decend to a lower level, also resulting in it now traveling at a lower speed than it would have done on two engines at it normal cruising altitude. So while it may be within 180 mins of a suitable landing location while cruising with two engines, it may take it longer than 180 mins to actually get there using a single engine.

Note that ETOPS is only applicable to twin-engine aircraft.

ETOPS - Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim

 

[anat0l]

Ok so what about flights from like Frankfurt to San Fran that fly over the arctic. Do they have staffed runways thru Northern Canada and Greenland just in case something happens in a remote area like that?

There are certainly airfields (even those with scheduled regular passenger service) in Greenland. I'm not sure if they are suitable for a 777, but I'm sure those who have done the flight paths would be aware of suitable fields.

Flight paths are created with ETOPS and diversion fields in mind, including alternatives. Aircraft would not be certified for a route if a flight path were impossible to conceive with appropriate diversion fields in cases of an engine lost. This goes some way to explaining why some aircraft simply can't be assigned to certain routes, even if the range is quite possible on paper, and this is besides the fact that those aircraft must be ETOPS certified for a particular rating in order to be able to be assigned a certain path to connect two ports.

 

[TomVexille]

Ok so what about flights from like Frankfurt to San Fran that fly over the arctic. Do they have staffed runways thru Northern Canada and Greenland just in case something happens in a remote area like that?

There will be suitable airfields (no idea if they are staffed or not) along the route. I'm pretty sure you can come down to 90 minutes on FRA-SFO

 

[medhead]

Ok so what about flights from like Frankfurt to San Fran that fly over the arctic. Do they have staffed runways thru Northern Canada and Greenland just in case something happens in a remote area like that?

Both this and your Honolulu questions seem to assume the alternative airfield has to be along the direction of travel. The alternative airfield can be in any direction.

 

[markis10]

Note that ETOPS is only applicable to twin-engine

Since 2007 the FAA have decreed the term also covers LROPs or ETOPs for three and four engines.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2007-01-16/pdf/07-39.pdf

 

[straitman]

... and will have three times as many engines still running, if one engine goes out.

In the majority of cases this will still require a diversion so mostly you are not a lot better off.

Ok so what about flights from like Frankfurt to San Fran that fly over the arctic. Do they have staffed runways thru Northern Canada and Greenland just in case something happens in a remote area like that?

The requirement is that the airfield is safe for a diversion not that it has all the 'other' facilities available.

And remember that ETOPS requirements are very complex. For example, if the aircraft is heavy (carrying lots of fuel and cargo), its likely that it can't maintain a high altitude on a single engine, so may need to decend to a lower level, also resulting in it now traveling at a lower speed than it would have done on two engines at it normal cruising altitude. So while it may be within 180 mins of a suitable landing location while cruising with two engines, it may take it longer than 180 mins to actually get there using a single engine.

Note that ETOPS is only applicable to twin-engine aircraft.

ETOPS - Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim

Not quite NM.

ETOPS (insert number) is the single-engine flying time to the nearest suitable airport. ETOPS operation has no direct correlation to water or distance over water.

The ETOPS (insert number) refers to the certification for particular aircraft of particular airlines. i.e. just because airline 'A' is certified ETOPS 180 does not mean that the same type operated by airline 'B' automatically gets that certification. Airlines are required to get specific maintenance approval for ETOPS operations.

 

[DC3]

In the majority of cases this will still require a diversion so mostly you are not a lot better off.

It's not the diversion that worries me. It's how many engines are still running.

 

[Quickstatus]

There are more suitable alternate landing sites for a 2 engined B777 than a 4 engined A380 between Australia and mainland USA.

ETOPS certification is granted to the airline rather than to the specific airplane. It takes more than just an airplane built for ETOPS flying.

So Timbuktoo B777 may not get ETOPS 180 or even 240 certification but EK/VA/DL/UA might for its B777

Also have you noticed the engines on a B777. I think They are the biggest engines used thus far in commercial aviation.

they put out max 110-120,000 lbs thrust (an A380 uses 4 engines pushing max 80,000 lbs thrust). And an A380 is a much larger airplane

 

[straitman]

It's not the diversion that worries me. It's how many engines are still running.

I understand but it really needs to include reliability as part of the equation. Read the history part of the link I have included below as it gives a good explanation.

Whilst I never champion Wikipedia as being purely authoritative I suggest that on this occasion it is quite accurate.

Have a look at Wikipedia ETOPS . Look down the page to also see the also see the history of ETOPS.

 

[The Rok]

Wouldn't this be better in the Ask The Pilot Thread? I am somewhat fascinated by all this though, it makes for interesting conversation whilst seated beside a stranger on a flight who is clearly a nervous flyer!

 

[defurax]

Ok so what about flights from like Frankfurt to San Fran that fly over the arctic. Do they have staffed runways thru Northern Canada and Greenland just in case something happens in a remote area like that?

I know that during the certification process of the A380 they landed one at YFB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0QY6CbIXhw. There are plenty of airfields in the Baffin region, but YFB would have all the services for an emergency.

 

[Quickstatus]

Everything in life is a calculated risk..... The risk is so small though for two engine vs 4 engines that it is irrelevant. More risk driving your car or crossing the road.....



These days turbofan engines are extremely reliable, coupled with strict protocols and regulations in the operation of most airlines, crashes are actually due to other reasons than engine failure.



British airways 747. 4 engine flameout over indonesia due to volcanic ash - managed to restart in flight

Gimli Glider - ran out of fuel managed to land

British airways 777 2 engine flameout due to ice crystals retarding fuel flow. managed to land at airport.

QF32 One engine uncontained failure but damage also degraded performance of 2 other engines. Only one engine fully operational - managed to land

Must be others..

 

[defurax]

Must be others..

The "Azores Glider" Air Transat Flight 236 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It looks like Canadian pilots are big on gliding...:shock:

 

[medhead]

Us airways [whatever] that landed in the Hudson River. Also raises the most critical time for engine failure - take off and landing.

 

[keithplya9]

Us airways [whatever] that landed in the Hudson River. Also raises the most critical time for engine failure - take off and landing.

Oh hey thats another question I have. Do planes float when they land in the water? I remember the picture of the US airways plane sit sitting in the river and people stood on the wings... but did u see the video of that plane in Hawaii where the guy filmed the whole crash wit ha go-pro? It was like the second that plane hit the water it started sinking and all the people were just floating in the water

 

[astrosly]

Must be others..

I am a nervous flyer and so are a number of my friends. Whenever they worry about what could happen when they lose an engine I point them to this article and video as to what happens when a single engine plane loses its single engine (!)
Young pilots praised for 'textbook' crash landing at Victoria Point - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Always makes them and myself feel better about flying. The moral is you don't just drop out of the sky, and a good pilot should see you (relatively) safely to the ground.

 

[medhead]

Oh hey thats another question I have. Do planes float when they land in the water? I remember the picture of the US airways plane sit sitting in the river and people stood on the wings... but did u see the video of that plane in Hawaii where the guy filmed the whole crash wit ha go-pro? It was like the second that plane hit the water it started sinking and all the people were just floating in the water

What crash in Hawaii? The only crash I've seen like that was in the Indian Ocean. The difference was all about the luck of the landing. But none of this is about aircraft losing engines.

 

[keithplya9]

What crash in Hawaii? The only crash I've seen like that was in the Indian Ocean. The difference was all about the luck of the landing. But none of this is about aircraft losing engines.

Here is the link ITS CRAZY! the plane just sinks! apparently someone died in it all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QguEfBMhpyc

 

[ric_melb]

keithplya9 I would recommend you take a Bex and a good lie down. With reputable airlines that are certified with two engine planes you should not be concerned.
The airline and the pilots are well trained to handle one engine flying, if the unlikely eventuality occurs.

 

[keithplya9]

keithplya9 I would recommend you take a Bex and a good lie down. With reputable airlines that are certified with two engine planes you should not be concerned.
The airline and the pilots are well trained to handle one engine flying, if the unlikely eventuality occurs.

thanks! yeah I'm actually a really good flyer. Its weird actually....I have really bad panic and anxiety, but i never have problems on planes. Im just wondering out of curiosity. Ive always been a big fan of air travel and planes and when I found this forum i was like... oh sweet! i can ask all the questions I've always wanted to!