WSI for Western Sydney Airport

[moa999]

Several MPs pushed for that!

No doubt pushed by the Snow family.

was a massive failure to not plan for the current airport train to continue on to the now WSI

Not at all. Far better to spend the $s connecting the airport to future passengers, rather than a tiny percentage of pax who might transfer.

No direct trains between any of London, New York or Tokyo airports either, even though most have various forms of rail connections to the city.

The initial Airport Metro connection is to St.Marys with studies for future connections to the M1 Tallawong terminus, to Macarthur/ Liverpool and to T2/T5 terminus at Leppington.
There is space kept aside for a future station connected to Metro West (Westmead/ Parramatta) but the current government dropped the study funds.

 

[SYD]

Not at all. Far better to spend the $s connecting the airport to future passengers, rather than a tiny percentage of pax who might transfer.

The comment about not extending the heavy rail towards WSI was more about building a more direct line from the rest of Sydney and future proofing for growing international services. The interconnection between SYD and WSI would have been an added bonus.

Yes, the metro connection being built (as I mentioned earlier) will be good for the immediate catchment area but next to useless (or impractical) for anyone in the Northern Beaches, Inner West, CBD and East and South East.

No direct trains between any of London, New York or Tokyo airports either, even though most have various forms of rail connections to the city.

The EL in London could have better connected to LCY (and not so much the interconnection between LHR and LCY but just because they could have/should have.

Although it has provided a one change connection between LHR and LGW.

SFO and OAK are connected by BART.

There is space kept aside for a future station connected to Metro West (Westmead/ Parramatta) but the current government dropped the study funds.

Yes, another stuff up.

 

[justinbrett]

No doubt pushed by the Snow family.


Not at all. Far better to spend the $s connecting the airport to future passengers, rather than a tiny percentage of pax who might transfer.

No direct trains between any of London, New York or Tokyo airports either, even though most have various forms of rail connections to the city.

The initial Airport Metro connection is to St.Marys with studies for future connections to the M1 Tallawong terminus, to Macarthur/ Liverpool and to T2/T5 terminus at Leppington.
There is space kept aside for a future station connected to Metro West (Westmead/ Parramatta) but the current government dropped the study funds.

Even if they built a heavy rail spur line from St Marys to WSI it would have been exponentially better - the ability to run trains direct from Central to WSI, via important centres such as Paramatta & Blacktown (and hence connecting to Richmond). The ideal plan would be to run from Liverpool to St Marys via WSI which would connect it to the entire city.

As I've already said in this thread, this Australian habit of "fitted for, not with" in most cases means it never happens. The airport line in Brisbane has had a proposed station at Skygate (DFO) since its design phase and despite continued talk it still hasn't happened over 20 years later.

 

[dajop]

SFO and OAK are connected by BART.

Yeh, and MDW and ORD are connected by Chicago's Subway/El. But neither are direct through running trains, like the connection from LHR to LCY or LHR to LGW, a change in train is required.

Trying to think of two nearby airports that more or less serve the same urban agglomerate that are connected by rail without changing trains, and the one pair I came up with was DUS and CGN. ZRH and GVA are also connected by direct trains, but they are 3 hrs apart.

 

[elanshin]

Even if they built a heavy rail spur line from St Marys to WSI it would have been exponentially better - the ability to run trains direct from Central to WSI, via important centres such as Paramatta & Blacktown (and hence connecting to Richmond). The ideal plan would be to run from Liverpool to St Marys via WSI which would connect it to the entire city.

As I've already said in this thread, this Australian habit of "fitted for, not with" in most cases means it never happens. The airport line in Brisbane has had a proposed station at Skygate (DFO) since its design phase and despite continued talk it still hasn't happened over 20 years later.

The actual low hanging fruit is to extend leppington into aerotropolis and WSI. This would then connect into the existing line serving also a fast way to get to SW Sydney or a quicker express into the CBD on an existing line which so happens to go via SYD as an added bonus.

From leppington station, i believe it's only about a 12-15km, 15-20 minute drive to WSI which getting an extension of the line with 2 stops should've been a no brainer.

 

[moa999]

It's cheaper.. but a 12-15km heavy rail extension still isn't cheap.

And if it effectively blocks a future direct connection to Parramatta/ CBD or Campbeltown / Macarthur both of which would have much higher passenger projections, it's an economically stupid move.

 

[Franky]

It's cheaper.. but a 12-15km heavy rail extension still isn't cheap.

And if it effectively blocks a future direct connection to Parramatta/ CBD or Campbeltown / Macarthur both of which would have much higher passenger projections, it's an economically stupid move.

'It's cheaper.. but a 12-15km heavy rail extension still isn't cheap.' As I recall there was a 'light rail' built in Sydney not long ago which was a financial disaster - $2.5bn was it??

 

[justinbrett]

Yeh, and MDW and ORD are connected by Chicago's Subway/El. But neither are direct through running trains, like the connection from LHR to LCY or LHR to LGW, a change in train is required.

Trying to think of two nearby airports that more or less serve the same urban agglomerate that are connected by rail without changing trains, and the one pair I came up with was DUS and CGN. ZRH and GVA are also connected by direct trains, but they are 3 hrs apart.

I think ICN & GMP.

Also there's at least plans to connect BNE & OOL.

Gold Coast Heavy Rail Extension – Varsity Lakes to Gold Coast Airport (Department of Transport and Main Roads)

We are planning and preserving land for a proposed extension of the Gold Coast Line from Varsity Lakes to Tugun, Coolangatta and the Gold Coast Airport.

www.tmr.qld.gov.au

 

[justinbrett]

'It's cheaper.. but a 12-15km heavy rail extension still isn't cheap.' As I recall there was a 'light rail' built in Sydney not long ago which was a financial disaster - $2.5bn was it??

And it's bursting at the seems every time I've been on it.

I'd say it was a resounding success, although not cheap (nothing good ever is).

 

[tdimdad]

Changing trains mid-journey can work OK, if done properly. But looking at the station built in St Marys, the metro station seems to be a separate one, although adjacent, to the current train station.

The way Singapore has the change organised in Tanah Merah works well because it's so simple: just walk 10 m across the platform. The next best option is an efficient and easy change of platforms within the same station complex. Hopefully they make that happen in St Marys, otherwise it'll be a lost opportunity to make the train an easy and inviting option.

 

[RooFlyer]

Can be quicker to go to SYD and fly to CBR than it takes to get to parts of the west from Sydney's East and North

And I’m sure the Westies say thank God the bankers from the beaches won’t come here.

Oh, and those who just can’t put the words western and Sydney together in the one sentence just call the damn airport Nancy Bird.

 

[dairyfloss]

Changing trains mid-journey can work OK, if done properly. But looking at the station built in St Marys, the metro station seems to be a separate one, although adjacent, to the current train station.

The way Singapore has the change organised in Tanah Merah works well because it's so simple: just walk 10 m across the platform. The next best option is an efficient and easy change of platforms within the same station complex. Hopefully they make that happen in St Marys, otherwise it'll be a lost opportunity to make the train an easy and inviting option.

Singapore works very well; the only way it could be better (other than no connection needed at all) would be that the connection was at an indoor/air-conditioned MRT station!

 

[dajop]

I think ICN & GMP.

Forgot about that one. There's also PVG & SHA via Shanghai Metro Line 2 - although that's about 100 or so minutes.

 

[jpp42]

Trying to think of two nearby airports that more or less serve the same urban agglomerate that are connected by rail without changing trains,

Some misinformation above about Tokyo, it's absolutely possible to take a direct train from NRT to HND, it's jointly operated by Keisei/Keikyu and is called the ACCESS Limited Express. It takes about 90 minutes and runs every half hour - not too bad given the distances involved and the complexity of the network it travels.

Edit: Another direct train between airports is AMS to BRU, they appear to run about once an hour and take 2h10m. Whether you consider the Low Countries/Benelux the same "urban agglomerate" is up to discussion, I suppose. The entire area would be smaller than say, Seoul and its exurbs.

 

[jpp42]

Changing trains mid-journey can work OK, if done properly. But looking at the station built in St Marys, the metro station seems to be a separate one, although adjacent, to the current train station.

The way Singapore has the change organised in Tanah Merah works well because it's so simple: just walk 10 m across the platform. The next best option is an efficient and easy change of platforms within the same station complex. Hopefully they make that happen in St Marys, otherwise it'll be a lost opportunity to make the train an easy and inviting option.

The St Mary's change will require four journeys up/down: from the T1 line, up stairs/lifts to the overhead concourse, then an escalator down to street level, another one further down to the underground Metro mezzanine, and then finally the last escalator down to the platforms. There's been an attempt to make each walking segment as short as possible - for example, the escalator down from the new T1 overhead concourse will directly line up with the next segment down to the Metro mezzanine. While it's still far from a cross-platform transfer, I think it's the best we can expect. The only place we have proper cross-platform transfer between different systems in Sydney is at Chatswood (and soon at Sydenham) but that only came about because Metro took over infrastructure from Sydney Trains. The Chatswood situation was also hurt by Sydney Trains and Sydney metro refusing to cooperate on timetabling.

 

[kamchatsky]

The comment about not extending the heavy rail towards WSI was more about building a more direct line from the rest of Sydney and future proofing for growing international services. The interconnection between SYD and WSI would have been an added bonus.

Yes, the metro connection being built (as I mentioned earlier) will be good for the immediate catchment area but next to useless (or impractical) for anyone in the Northern Beaches, Inner West, CBD and East and South East.

The EL in London could have better connected to LCY (and not so much the interconnection between LHR and LCY but just because they could have/should have.

Although it has provided a one change connection between LHR and LGW.

SFO and OAK are connected by BART.

Yes, another stuff up.

The idea is to build Metro West first from Sydney CBD Hunter Street to Westmead. Then, later, if there is more funding, extend Metro West from Westmead to WSI. It is not a stuff-up as the NSW government just doesn't have that much money to build everything at once.

If you want to look at stuff up, you can look at MEL.

Even if they built a heavy rail spur line from St Marys to WSI it would have been exponentially better - the ability to run trains direct from Central to WSI, via important centres such as Paramatta & Blacktown (and hence connecting to Richmond). The ideal plan would be to run from Liverpool to St Marys via WSI which would connect it to the entire city.

As I've already said in this thread, this Australian habit of "fitted for, not with" in most cases means it never happens. The airport line in Brisbane has had a proposed station at Skygate (DFO) since its design phase and despite continued talk it still hasn't happened over 20 years later.

Nah, there is no way NSW will build heavy rail anymore. The main line is severely constrained and requires much higher operational expenditures. Metro is driverless, can run at very high capacity, and is far better suited to the future.

In fact, I would argue that more existing Sydney Trains lines will be converted to Metro in the long run to decouple the capacity constraints and lower operational expenditure. That's why they are doing the Bankstown line Metro conversion.

The actual low hanging fruit is to extend leppington into aerotropolis and WSI. This would then connect into the existing line serving also a fast way to get to SW Sydney or a quicker express into the CBD on an existing line which so happens to go via SYD as an added bonus.

From leppington station, i believe it's only about a 12-15km, 15-20 minute drive to WSI which getting an extension of the line with 2 stops should've been a no brainer.

Due to long-term operational costs, I cannot see the Leppington line getting extended to WSI. It is almost better if they extend Metro from Aerotropolis/Bradfield directly to Glenfield, convert the entire East Hills line to the Metro, and connect SYD and WSI that way.

 

[justinbrett]

Nah, there is no way NSW will build heavy rail anymore. The main line is severely constrained and requires much higher operational expenditures. Metro is driverless, can run at very high capacity, and is far better suited to the future.

Rather than debate you (considering current metro has cost far more than heavy rail per km); I'll just post this article that outlines the points better than I could.

Railroads parading as metros: the long and short of Sydney rail maze

The Berejiklian government has invested billions in metros, but big gaps between stations may defy their purpose as zippy people movers.

www.smh.com.au

Although I guess arguing about which type of rail is used at Sydney's secondary airport is probably going to annoy a lot of Victorians At least they put something in.

 

[moa999]

Changing trains mid-journey can work OK, if done properly. But looking at the station built in St Marys, the metro station seems to be a separate one, although adjacent, to the current train station.

Both Singapore branches were built at the same time.. far easier to build cross-platform connections. Also no good if coming from Tamines or Pasir Ria.
And not sure if it will still be cross -platform once the new under construction platform is complete.

St.Marys was built in 1862 and has heritage listings on much of the station.
The new Metro station will be underground in a trench next to the existing two platforms. Lifts and escalators up to a new much larger above ground concourse that will provide access to the existing platforms.

While BNE to OOL might be connected - it will be 2hrs (currently 1hr 45-50min from Airport to Varsity Lakes on the direct service)

 

[justinbrett]

While BNE to OOL might be connected - it will be 2hrs (currently 1hr 45-50min from Airport to Varsity Lakes on the direct service)

View attachment 386822

There will be some time savings with CRR.

In any case 2:00 is pretty good for a car trip that takes 1:15 with no traffic, and easily up to 2:00 with traffic. It is 108Km after all, almost double the distance between WSI & SYD.

 

[kamchatsky]

Rather than debate you (considering current metro has cost far more than heavy rail per km); I'll just post this article that outlines the points better than I could.

Railroads parading as metros: the long and short of Sydney rail maze

The Berejiklian government has invested billions in metros, but big gaps between stations may defy their purpose as zippy people movers.

www.smh.com.au

Although I guess arguing about which type of rail is used at Sydney's secondary airport is probably going to annoy a lot of Victorians At least they put something in.

Your article is Paywalled. So I cannot read it.

Also, the metro is mostly underground, and it is being built now than 100 years ago, of course cost per km is higher than heavy rail. I am very sure that if they try to build heavy rail now underground, it would cost far more than Metro.

Another thing to note that the Sydney Trains heavy rail rolling stock is much more expensive than Metro trains.