WSI for Western Sydney Airport

[33kft]

is relatively small (part of just 1 LGA within Greater Melbourne, the City of Wyndham, <200K people + Geelong's 250K ,

I think that number is a little low for Wyndham. A quick search gives me a population of 310K in 2022 and being the last of the Bayside growth corridors there is no shortage of development. Expected to be 500K+ in 15 years, and I think that is conservative.

That said, AVV is both hardly metro or utilised, and none of this is intended to attribute foresight to anything AVV related.

 

[dajop]

I think that number is a little low for Wyndham. A quick search gives me a population of 310K in 2022 an

I was reducing the population by about 20% to account for the fact that there's still even a chunk (probably 1/3 of the council area) that is closer to MEL than AVV. But Geelong and surrounding shires cover about 350K as well.

 

[Quickstatus]

but the catchment area for WSI dont generally have the disposable income for premium cost carriers

Disagree. There is a lot of $$$ and disposable income west of "inner Sydney"

Not once they factor in the cost of the Taxi/Uber (which could easily come to $200 vs $30 to SYD)

No may cost more in taxi/Uber to SYD.
For the return cost of taxi/rideshare I can park for 5 weeks at SYD T1.

 

[Lynda2475]

No may cost more in taxi/Uber to SYD.
For the return cost of taxi/rideshare I can park for 5 weeks at SYD T1.

Well i didnt mention self drive to some nearby long term parking where you then have to schlep your bags to the terminal or transfer to a bus.

I was talking taxi/uber door to door which is what most business travellers do and then ask their boss to reimburse.

So i stand by my comments it is much cheaper to get a uber/raxi to an airport within 20mins of home than one 90mins or more in traffic away.

I hope never to have to use WSI $200 uber each way is unpalatable to me.

 

[Quickstatus]

nearby long term parking

Syd T1 - schlep a short distance and no need to transfer to/from bus
Also on return - Schlep a short distance and no need to queue up for Uber/taxi

Dom parking: still have to schlep to Uber and taxi and the queues...

20min? Insular comes to mind.....

I hope never to have to use WSI $200 uber each way is unpalatable to me.

In the same way SYD $200 uber/taxi each way is unpalatable to me...

 

[Lynda2475]

20min? Insular comes to mind.....

No that is my reality, my current commute to airport is 20 mins surface roads (unless there is a major issue) or less if take the new tunnel from Haberfield - price is the same as no tolls on surface, toll if take the tunnel.

RooFlyer implied employers might push staff to fly out of WSI if flights are cheaper. However, I countered that if the WSI airfare + Uber/Taxi is going to be significantly more than SYD airfare + Uber/Taxi - then employers will not preference WSI.

I have had to comply with many different employer travel policies over the decades, I can state with authority that there is going to be no issue flying on an airfare that is say $50 more if it saves them $170 difference in the Uber/taxi fare and also means the employee is willing to fly earlier.

You obviously live closer to WSI and are happy to go there, good for you. It's a helluva long Uber/Taxi for me so I will avoid at all costs.

If for example all flights to international places I travel to were moved to WSI, I think Id rather connect via another city and take the extra SCs if it means the first flight could still be out of SYD.

And unless employer was willing to fund door to door uber/taxi to WSI for domestic travel and not expect me to absorb the extra 70 minutes each way out of my own time - then I would decline to fly domestically from there.

As someone who did 6am SYD-MEL more times than I care to remember, it is bad enough leaving home at 4:45am, I'm certainly not going to leave home at 3:35am to get to WSI for a 6am departure.

I worked hard so I could live where i do as it is convenient to everywhere I choose to go/work and that includes SYD.

I have lived in the south western suburbs and I would never do so again and definitely not further west to anywhere near WSI where it is essential to have a car. Sure I could have bought a McMansion out west for less than cost of my inner Sydney apartment, but i value time, proximity to venues, friends and family and SYD far more.

WSI is obviously going to suit you, but it is going to be a significantly longer commute therefore more expensive in an Uber/Taxi (or even driving with all the extra tolls) for anyone who lives in the City, Eastern Suburbs, Inner West, Inner South, Lower North Shore, Northern Beaches and that is a huge chunk of greater Sydney.

 

[Quickstatus]

but it is going to be a significantly longer commute therefore more expensive in an Uber/Taxi (or even driving with all the extra tolls) for anyone who lives in the City, Eastern Suburbs, Inner West, Inner South, Lower North Shore, Northern Beaches and that is a huge chunk of greater Sydney.

Well, I would suggest that the Centre of population of Sydney is currently about Lidcombe/Ermington than the places you suggest.
Massive land developments are occuring SW Sydney - Gregory Hills for example. I was astounded by the amount of development there.
Inner Sydney populations- encompassing the areas you mentioned, are currently boosted by cheap apartment living by the younger generation and I would not say that it is a richer population than out west. Increasingly young professionals with disposable income are moving out of the city to north, west and SW and commuting for work. An airport such as WSI moves the economic centre west and SW. For many people WSI will be cheaper to get to but i think cost of travel to airport is but one of the factors determining attractiveness of an airport. Sydney is curtailed by available land and curfew. Increasingly WSI will be the area of growth.

 

[Lynda2475]

Inner Sydney populations- encompassing the areas you mentioned, are currently boosted by cheap apartment living by the younger generation and I would not say that it is a richer population than out west.

If you think living in an apartment in inner Sydney is cheap your are very much mistaken, a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment rents in Mosman or CBD and even Leichaardt are easily more than a 3 or 4 bedroom house out west. Just look at real estate prices, you have to be a professional and have great income to afford anything with a glimpse of the harbour (or a beach).

And as for many being younger closer into the city I also disagree - sure there are pockets heavy with student accommodation (i.e. near UNSW and USyd/UTS) but the areas I noted (City, Inner West, Lower North Shore, Northern Beaches, Eastern Suburbs and Inner South) are full of families, professional and retirees. When even an entry level apartment costs over $1m and a free-standing house starts at $2m the street isnt dominated by first time homebuyers or young'uns.

The census clearly shows that median incomes in lower north shore, northern beaches, inner west are higher than Penrith or Liverpool or Campbeltown.

There are some wealthy people in the west but average punter there is likely to have lower income than average punter living anywhere near the harbour.

Nothing you have said changes the fact WSI is inconvenient to millions who will continue to preference SYD.

 

[Quickstatus]

Just look at real estate prices, you have to be a professional and have great income to afford anything with a glimpse of the harbour (or a beach).

You should see inside these apartments. Multiply the number of bedrooms by sometimes more than 2 to et the number of occupants.

free-standing house starts at $2m the street isnt dominated by first time homebuyers or young'uns.

Why would they, they are paying $3M in Castle Hill, $1M in Gregory Hills for a brand new

WSI is inconvenient to millions who will continue to preference SYD.

An perhaps convenient to the other millions

 

[SYD]

An perhaps convenient to the other millions

You’re in violent agreement.

 

[Quickstatus]

You’re in violent agreement.

Split it down the middle.

 

[dajop]

s the fact WSI is inconvenient to millions who will continue to preference SYD.

Yep it is, but really so what? I think if SYD were moving to WSI it would be a huge problems. But WSI is just supplementing SYD so overall a net benefit to the community. Four groups
1) Those who are definitevely closer to WSI or need to travel to businesses that are, WSI provides a benefit
2) Those who aren't closer to WSI, but have big families and are happy to drive and park at WSI, to take advantage of cheaper fares - net benefit
3) Business relying on airfreight - net benefit.
4) Everyone else - nothing changes. No net direct benefit. Although indirectly could benefit from some pressure on SYD and some individuals perhaps from alternatively timed International services.

Not sure what the problem is. If WSI is not for you, it's not for you. But that doesn't mean it's not for many others.

 

[Quickstatus]

Four groups

5 groups
5) Those whose superfunds (like mine) that have a stake in SYD who might see a reduction in benefit due to movement of business to WSI

 

[moa999]

They say these outrageous claims in order get more government handouts.

It's a fully Federal government owned airport.
(Sydney airport had an option and declined).

Undoubtedly a future Fed Govt will probably sell WSI but thats probably 10+ years in the future when it has grown into the initial development.

 

[RooFlyer]

Story in today's Oz ... perhaps the CEO is being a little ambitious, but hey, ya gotta aim high, right?

Western Sydney Airport could be the size of Dubai or New York’s JFK, says its chief executive

Mr Hickey said the greenfield development – twice the size of the current Sydney Airport site – would solve the problem of Sydney being one of few global cities with no 24-hour airport, as well as opening up new routes and scheduling options.

Western Sydney Airport will commence operations in 2026 with a single runway and a terminal capable of handling 10 million passengers per year.

“We’ll open with about three million people that can get to and from the airport within an hour, so that’s our package. That’s the third largest package in Australia. It’s the most diverse community – 170 different ancestries within western Sydney.”

Qantas and Jetstar will base 15 aircraft at the site and commence flights in the first year.

I was also surprised at the progress made on the Metro tunnelling to connect the airport with St Mary's station and the rest of the Sydney rail network. There is a link to a video in the above story.

 

[kamchatsky]

I was also surprised at the progress made on the Metro tunnelling to connect the airport with St Mary's station and the rest of the Sydney rail network. There is a link to a video in the above story.

That's because NSW Liberals actually invested money to develop a lot of infrastructure for the future for 11 years they were in charge. I am still amazed Mel doesn't have direct rail access.

 

[elanshin]

I was also surprised at the progress made on the Metro tunnelling to connect the airport with St Mary's station and the rest of the Sydney rail network. There is a link to a video in the above story.

The metro was always part of the plans for the airport.

The only downside is currently they're missing a huge opportunity. If they connected south to leppington and extended the existing rail line, you could have had a seemless 45 min airport to airport connection.

 

[moa999]

Transfers between the two airports will be pretty minimal.

Far better to use the rail line to minimise the journey time for the majority of people who will use the airport.

While a second line to the airport is protected, it seemingly won't be to Leppington either, rather an extension of the under construction Metro West from Parramatta.

 

[jpp42]

While a second line to the airport is protected, it seemingly won't be to Leppington either, rather an extension of the under construction Metro West from Parramatta.

In 2022, the former Government announced planning for a business case to extend the airport metro to Glenfield, via Leppington (replacing the Sydney Trains heavy rail on the Leppington to Glenfield segment). This would allow much better access to WSI airport from the southwest and south in general, since several lines converge on Glenfield, and would allow airport-to-airport transfers with one transfer there. After the election, other business cases that were established by the Liberals were cancelled/postponed by Labor with great fanfare, but this one is actually still being worked on quietly. Here's a map from SMH showing the whole setup; the segment under discussion here is the purple - "business case under way."


Source

It's interesting that the map on the Sydney Metro web site includes the gray segments ('business case promised') but not the purple segment, which is the only one where the business case is actually being worked on currently. I believe this is likely due to political reasons, i.e. Labor doesn't want to admit that the Liberal-initiated business case may in fact be a good idea, so they are staying as quiet about it as possible. Eventually if they decide to go ahead, they will announce it in a way that makes it seem like entirely their project.

The NSW government's map of proposed metros here:



Source

Also note that even if the airport metro is extended to Tallawong, this will require a change of trains to continue on the Metro from there, as the airport line uses different technology and different sized trains that the Tallawong to Chatswood/Bankstown Line. Australia never can seem to learn the lesson about incompatible railway systems...

 

[RooFlyer]

as the airport line uses different technology and different sized trains that the Tallawong to Chatswood/Bankstown Line.

Great info, thanks. Is the incompatibility due to the fact that the Chatswood to Epping (at least) segment of the metro was originally built as a heavy train extension of the North Shore Line and the Metro had to be adapted to it for all of that line?