What's a Velocity Point Worth

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serfty

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I was doing a post and I realised I am not really sure as the answer to the above question.
I value QFF points at more than 2½¢ each, so the 1000 point minimum has a built in $25+ value.

Velocity Points have a different value, at $55 I'd earn 385 as a VG. Assume the same 2½¢ each so that's a possible $11+ value.
Searching, I found this old thread with touches briefly with no real answer:I see that using points to pay
ppplus.bmp
on awards values them at 1¢ each. I'm sure that better value can be obtained.

So, What is a Velocity Point worth to you? ... and why?
 
Interesting you bring up this thread as I have been trying hard to find the answer for a long time now but no one keen to answer the question. Is it really that hard?

Personally I value Velocity points at ½¢ each at the best of times but I am happy to given them an interim value of 1¢ a point until a better calculation comes along.

Perhaps one might get better value using Velocity points for business class awards but that does not really interest me at the moment.

I know for a fact that domestic awards have extremely poor value but can't get too excited at their international destinations either.

I am more interested in redeeming Velocity points for trips to SE Asia, specifically BKK/HKG, and possibly Europe so need to do some research into how many Velocity points are required with partner airlines and the value derived out of the redemption.
 
I'd be interested as well. The figure, whatever it may be, might be in a for a change soon when DJ domestic J starts to appear.

For QFF I simplistically just compare awards flights to a similar full fare.

Y rewards = discount Y (to me)
J rewards = J

For instance, return PER-MEL on a recent dummy booking was about 2800$ or 86,000 points on a JASA, after return of 4600 points = 81,400 which in the specific case makes a QFF point = 3.4c

Y awards seem to convert at 0.5c to 1c/point. As 0.5c/point is about the same as converting to money or gift cards I view that as the worst possible redemption value (thanks to many AFFers who helped me in recent months to understand this).

So, to me, 1c-4c is the QFF point value. Knowing what I know now though I'd be disinclined to redeem for 1c ... Probably I'd side with Serfty above and average the perceived value in my head at 2.5c/point possibly 3. F class international flights seem to hold considerable promise of breaking the 5 or 6c/point level.

I'm just about to do the same sort of calculations for some dummy DJ flights to see whats what.

Am I viewing this too simply do you think?
 
No, I don't think your view is too simple, you can go overboard with complex calculations, but really it all comes down to what you spend them on at the time.

Having a look at some VA flights, it's 188,000points plus $308 tax for a return MEL-LAX in J. Looking at the flights for that day it'll be $4604 if you paid cash, so minus the tax that's $4296, divided by the points comes to $0.0228, so call it 2.3cents a point.

Of course every time you do this it's probably going to vary a little depending on conditions at the time. So I think no matter what you do it's always an approximate guess.
 
For domestic, I would value them around 1 cent per point. Apart from PER-DPS, I wouldn't use Velocity for international redemptions because it is such poor value and therefore I value them at roughly zero. Typically it seems a one-way economy Velocity redemption costs roughly the same as a return business class trip on Krisflyer.

Examples:
PER-JFK
Velocity: 245,000 one-way in Y
Krisflyer: 204,000 return in F

PER-CHC
Velocity: 24,900 one-way in Y
Krisflyer: 35,000 return in J

So here is a challenge: Are there any international redemptions from PER (apart from DPS) that cost less with Velocity than they do with Krisflyer?
 
PER-JFK
Velocity: 245,000 one-way in Y
Krisflyer: 204,000 return in F

PER-CHC
Velocity: 24,900 one-way in Y
Krisflyer: 35,000 return in J

I've noticed that most DJ own-metal rewards are calibrated to be similar in value to Qantas awards, or slightly cheaper. The example you cite of PER-CHC is an example, with QF charging 25,000 points. International rewards are similar for own-metal rewards but when you start involving partners (such as the example above) the price escalates dramatically because I think partner awards are similar to AnySeat Awards on QF - they are calibrated to the fare rather than being drawn from award inventory (DL in the case of JFK).

An exception to this seems to be the partnership with Etihad, where the awards through to somewhere such as LHR from SYD are 128,000 points in Y - very similar to QF but including a free stopover in AUH. Unfortunately this doesnt work for Perth with no EY service.
 
The Velocity points sit in my account waiting for Godot.Now in that play Godot does not turn up.
I hope DJ get a J product that is ok as I have 150k points sitting gathering electronic dust.
So far those points have been valued at bugger all but I have hopes that Virgin get a product that I would want to use for coast to coast travel.
That said Virgin did get me out of Launceston when I got to the airport to find I was facing a six hour wait for Jet* to get me off that island.
I have now seen a range of 0.5 cents to almost 2.3 cents so all is not lost.
Etihad may be exciting for Melbourne and Sydney but nothing for Perth.
 
Currently Velocity points are worthless to me due to the lack of domestic J.
I redeem my QF points for domestic J flights giving them a value of 3.25-3.75 cents, I would happily try Virgin if the same were avaliable.
 
Currently Velocity points are worthless to me due to the lack of domestic J.
I redeem my QF points for domestic J flights giving them a value of 3.25-3.75 cents, I would happily try Virgin if the same were avaliable.

I'm in the same boat. Heres hoping for big things from DJ this year. I might put off doing the work on calculating value of Velocity points for a few weeks - seems like there might be some sort of announcement from DJ within about a month.
 
So I finally got around to doing the calculations.

Dummy booked a couple of indicative domestic flights mid year and end of year on both DJ and QF then averaged them out with the following results:

PER-MEL return in all cases

QF Y, $476 inc CC fee, 45,230 QFF = 1.05c / point
DJ Y, $358 inc CC fee, 49,400 VFF - 0.72c / point

QF J, $2678 inc CC fee, 85,980 QFF = 3.73c / point
DJ PE, $1798 inc CC fee, 239,800 VFF = 0.75c / point


As least DJ is consistent at about 0.7c/point. QF seems to be all over the place, probably because their fares are more likely based upon what the market will bear rather than profit on top of cost - you can see this in the J fare cost and its reflected in the redemption rate. QF's redemption and dollar cost seems to vary considerably with seasonal goings-on, like Christmas or Easter whereas in my simple example at least, DJ's ticket and redemption pricing appeared to be stable.

One wonders if DJ's J class offering later this year will bring down QF J pricing and, as an offshoot, also reduce the value of QF points. If we presume the same or similar points cost with less $ charge for J as comparison then this is what would happen.

Of course this simple calculation does not indicate in any way whatsoever which scheme might be 'best' as earn rates are at least as important as burn rate to work out value.
 
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I'm interested in doing a sanity check here. I think my approach is correct, but want this confirmed.
My monthly rent of 2925 and I rent out two rooms that bring in 2250 per month. I hold the CBA Gold Rewards card, so earn 2 points per dollar for my Amex purchases that convert to 1 velocity point per dollar. I've been paying the monthly rent with rental rewards that charges me $40 per rent payment and now an additional $15 per month. So I'm spending $55 to earn 5960 Amex points per month, that. In addition to this, I'm about to transfer my points over to velocity with the 20% bonus in October. With this bonus I will earn 3576 Virgin points for $55 a month. In one sense, I've calculated that this cost me 1.54 cents per point and with the value of points be estimated at .5-1 cent that is too much to be spending, BUT because more than a third of that comes from money that has to go toward the rent anyway, I feel that even with this high cost, it's still makes sense for me to pay the monthly fee.

Last bit of info, I have not redeemed any points yet and only intend to use them for international flights.
 
BUT because more than a third of that comes from money that has to go toward the rent anyway, I feel that even with this high cost, it's still makes sense for me to pay the monthly fee.

Its my view that paying any extra money for points, where the cost of doing so exceeeds the value of the points, is a losing deal. I'll go as far as neutral cost myself (ie, the cost is the same as the value) but no further.

If you are saying that you will use Amex to pay rent regardless of points then its a no-brainer, the points are, in this instance, a free bonus for doing what you want to do in any case. However, if you are using the Amex instead of a direct debit (or other presumably free funds transfer) simply to get access to the points then in my opinion you'd be better off saving the fee and using that money for flights/upgrades or whatever.

[Edit: Oh, I should warn caution at using calculations from earlier in this thread as Virgin Australia is now the new name of Virgin Blue and the J product has been released. There are indicators that you can extract very similar value from Velocity points as compared to QFF points now ... though I have yet to personally do the calcs]
 
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But I can find PER-MEL in J on VA at the end of November for 30,800 points each way or 6900 points + $176.08 each way which would put a quite high value on velocity points.
 
But I can find PER-MEL in J on VA at the end of November for 30,800 points each way or 6900 points + $176.08 each way which would put a quite high value on velocity points.

Yes, I agree. There seems to be general instability in points value on VA right now as things settle down. I've also done calcs on random routes giving > 7.5c / point which was unheard of only 6 months ago.

Looking at PEr-MEL flights, its still not clear to me if VA will be running true J class by OCT/NOV. Looking at the bookings page shows both "Premium" at 1300$ and "Business" at 1300$ on the same column ... implying to me that they are the same product ....

In any event, 1300$ for 30,800 points = 4.2c/point. At $176.08 and 6900 points its something like $1300-$176 = $1124 / 6900 = 16.3c / point
 
Geez as a plat i earn them at 10 for the dollar.

</off to fly around in circles to build up my points balance!>
 
But I can find PER-MEL in J on VA at the end of November for 30,800 points each way or 6900 points + $176.08 each way which would put a quite high value on velocity points.
And as usual airfare and points value is up to the individual.

Just because an airline sells this business class airfare for ~$1,500 does not mean it is worth that much so the points should not be valued that high either. The value of the airfare and the points is what an individual is prepared to pay for that airfare.

For me, if an economy ticket PER-MEL costs ~$200 then a business class ticket is not worth more than ~$300 which would value the points at ~1c/point if redeeming reward outright or 2c/point if redeeming for points + cash using your example above.

And yes I do know you value business class airfares highly.
 
Yes the value of Virgin Australia points has risen as the new product has been announced.
However the last minute searches I have done recently on V Australia used very high numbers that would not work for me.
I am still hopeful that I can get the electronic dust off my growing stash of Velocity points sometime next year as the product in J gets consistency.
 
And as usual airfare and points value is up to the individual.

Just because an airline sells this business class airfare for ~$1,500 does not mean it is worth that much so the points should not be valued that high either. The value of the airfare and the points is what an individual is prepared to pay for that airfare.

For me, if an economy ticket PER-MEL costs ~$200 then a business class ticket is not worth more than ~$300 which would value the points at ~1c/point if redeeming reward outright or 2c/point if redeeming for points + cash using your example above.

And yes I do know you value business class airfares highly.

I could not agree more to this point. It does not make sense to calculate the value of points on the basis of what you would have to pay for the flight if you would never be willing to pay that much in the first instance. (Business class flight to the US and BNE/SYD/MEL - PER business class flights are heavily overpriced IMHO, for example.)

IMHO the only rational approach for calculating the value of miles that I could think of is the following (I have been doing it like this for years now):

1. Think about what you would like to do with your miles (origin, destination, cabin class, etc). [When thinking about this, be realistic. It does not make sense to dream of a 300,000 points award if you are never going to collect these 300,000 points in the first instance.]

2. Figure out what you would be willing to pay for this flight if it were offered to you for cash at the earliest point of time you could book your flight.

3. Find out what this flight would cost if you actually bought it for cash (at the earliest point of time you could book your flight).

4. Use the minimum of 2. and 3. and substract the taxes & fees that apply to award bookings of the same flight. Call this number the "base value". [If you have several ideas of what you might wish to do with your miles, use a weighted average of the corresponding "base values" and proceed with this weighted average as the new "base value".]

5. Figure out how many points you would need for buying your flight(s) with points. [Again, use a weighted average, if necessary. Also, take into account that you actualy need award availability for the flight(s) and the number of points you are having in mind.] Call this number "points burnt".

6. Figure out how many points you would reasonably earn if you could buy the flight(s) for the price of (base value + taxes & fees for awards). [This bit might involve some speculation if the number you got in 2. is way lower than the number you got in 3., so try to be realistic. Do not forget to include the cabin of service bonus and your status bonus.] Call this number "points earned".

7. Solve the following equation for DPP (= dollar per point):
base value - DPP * points earned = DPP * points burnt
DPP tells you how much value you should give to 1 point.

8. Double-check your calculation: if you are a rational person (and have no liquidity constraints with respect to your award travel plans), you should, in principle, be willing to buy points at the rate of DPP bucks per point (up to the amount of "points burnt") and book your award flight - because this is what you would consider a fair price. (Otherwise you might wish to adapt the numbers in 2. and/or in 6., and/or reconsider your award plans.)

The DPP can be used for answering at least five types of questions:
- for comparing the implicit price of different award flights,
- for calculating the real price (= net price) of a paid ticket,
- for deciding on whether (and to which extent) to make use of a points + cash option,
- for comparing different FFPs (by taking into account the net price of a paid ticket), and
- for deciding on whether it makes sense to buy points (by paying a credit card surcharge, for example).

Hope this make sense. I am interested in your comments.
 
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John I agree with you.Internationally I do pay for business fares anyway so easy to price my points.For example for our planned trip in July next year the fare is $9000.I got a J Aaward for 150000 miles so my AA miles are valued at 6 cents.QFF points are ~3 cents.
Domestically I only pay Y.However if i want to fly to Perth I usually just do the last sector of a DONE or Circle fare to get there in J.Always then come home in Y if paying or an Aaward.From PER-BNE Y fares usually $200-250 unless a sale.I would pay double but not the $1500+ usually asked.
So PER-BNE on PE on VA is 6900 +~$230.This would value a velocity point at 4 cents.I know this is PE but where there is J it appears to be at the same cost as PE is/was.An AA mile with an assumed cost of $500 would be worth 3 cents in this scenario.
So Velocity has become competitive domestically but still way behind internationally.

And to any VA rep reading this the only thing that annoys me re the award flight page on Velocity is having to go through all the steps to find the points + pay option.
 
...
For me, if an economy ticket PER-MEL costs ~$200 then a business class ticket is not worth more than ~$300 which would value the points at ~1c/point if redeeming reward outright or 2c/point if redeeming for points + cash using your example above. ...
What I have found with the VA PE awards is they are often available at short notice - rather inexpensively.

i.e. Right now I can book a 7pm today BNE-SYD flight in PE for 6650 velocity points and $46 (or 13300).

Cheapest economy allowing a checked bag I can find between 4:30pm and 7:30pm is $215 on DJ at 4:30 -then you need to but F&B (not to mention PE give lounge access for those with no status).

Travel between 5 and 7 - you are looking at $265.
 
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