what rights do you have for a seat

[Skoogle]

True,but I would imagine that Qantas conditions of carriage document would override any such implied contract,

I have always thought that an implied contract cannot be overriden by T&C.

 

[medhead]

True,but I would imagine that Qantas conditions of carriage document would override any such implied contract,

It probably would override it in a practical situation and to the extent of an inconsistency. But after the fact I'd think that they would be room for a claim against QF. Not leastly because of misleading advertising, if the conditions of carriage explicitly exclude something they say they provide in their advertisements. (note: I'm not including a situation involving safety of the aircraft in these comments.)

An example might be these people who book with QF but end up on a jetstar flight presumably with no meal included. If that were me and provided that the first time I was made aware it was a jetstar flight (edit was at check in) then I'd be asking for at least the fare difference to be refunded. Simply on the basis that the red-e-deal email was false and misleading.

 

[Nigelinoz]

An example might be these people who book with QF but end up on a jetstar flight presumably with no meal included. If that were me and provided that the first time I was made aware it was a jetstar flight then I'd be asking for at least the fare difference to be refunded. Simply on the basis that the red-e-deal email was false and misleading

A fair point except that the Qantas conditions of carriage refers to "codeshares" and they would probably maintain that a JQ flight is a Qantas codeshare in that circumstance.
Quote
'We have arrangements with other Carriers known as 'Codeshares'. This means that even if You have made a reservation on Us and hold a Ticket for a Qantas flight (ie, a flight with a QF Airline Designator Code), You may travel on another Carrier's aircraft.

If such arrangements apply to Your flight, We will advise You of the Carrier operating the aircraft at the time You make a reservation. The Conditions of Carriage of the Carrier whose flight number appears on Your Ticket will apply to Your Codeshare flight."

 

[medhead]

If such arrangements apply to Your flight, We will advise You of the Carrier operating the aircraft at the time You make a reservation. The Conditions of Carriage of the Carrier whose flight number appears on Your Ticket will apply to Your Codeshare flight."

Fair enough, I guess my example is based on qantas not meeting the committment to advise of the codeshare at the time of reservation. Sorry just reread my other post, I meant to include that the jetstar flight was only advised at check in. Sorry for leaving out the vital detail) In which case, I'd really be relying on those conditions of carriage in any claim.

Thinking about the question, really one is buying both a seat and passage from A to B and also buying neither of those things. Your buying space on a aircraft that will take you from A to B. You also buy capacity to take some personal belongs. The Airline defines how much space you get for your fare and of a number of reasons they give you a seat. One reason must be to define the space your allowed. This is reflected in F and J having larger seats than Y. F buys the most space on the plane and J buys the second most space per pax and Y is at the bottom.

 

[Nigelinoz]

Fair enough, I guess my example is based on qantas not meeting the committment to advise of the codeshare at the time of reservation. Sorry just reread my other post, I meant to include that the jetstar flight was only advised at check in. Sorry for leaving out the vital detail) In which case, I'd really be relying on those conditions of carriage in any claim.

Thinking about the question, really one is buying both a seat and passage from A to B and also buying neither of those things. Your buying space on a aircraft that will take you from A to B. You also buy capacity to take some personal belongs. The Airline defines how much space you get for your fare and of a number of reasons they give you a seat. One reason must be to define the space your allowed. This is reflected in F and J having larger seats than Y. F buys the most space on the plane and J buys the second most space per pax and Y is at the bottom.

This is reflected in F and J having larger seats than Y. F buys the most space on the plane and J buys the second most space per pax and Y is at the bottom.

You make fair points,but one question,if Y is at the bottom how does discount Y,which is the same seat as ordinary Y fare?Am I ,as the holder of a red e deal seat any less entitled to the space reserved for someone who paid full whack economy?

 

[simongr]

You make fair points,but one question,if Y is at the bottom how does discount Y,which is the same seat as ordinary Y fare?Am I ,as the holder of a red e deal seat any less entitled to the space reserved for someone who paid full whack economy?

You aren't. The difference between disc-Y and whY is the flexibility of the ticket. The point (AGAIN) is that in paying higher fares (between fare buckets rather than just the price points at whch you decide to pay) you are paying for more than just A-B and the ticket price is made up (AGAIN) of multiple elements.

 

[Nigelinoz]

Looks like we agree to disagree,simongr,because I believe you are paying for transport,just as you are with a public transport authority who charge you for a seat on the 5.10 to Ferntree Gully but don't guarantee you a specific seat.yet you can't demand compensation from them.
Also,with airlines like Air Asia you don't even have a pre assigned seat,it's the luck of the draw.
But you and I will probably never agree on this subject.

 

[Alanslegal]

Looks like we agree to disagree,simongr,because I believe you are paying for transport,just as you are with a public transport authority who charge you for a seat on the 5.10 to Ferntree Gully but don't guarantee you a specific seat.yet you can't demand compensation from them.
Also,with airlines like Air Asia you don't even have a pre assigned seat,it's the luck of the draw.
But you and I will probably never agree on this subject.

The common denominator for any fare is the class of travel and from getting you from A to B. So I agree when you say that if you purchased a cheap special economy ticket, you would be entitled to the same seat and space as if someone has paid a full fare economy ticket, however that's where it stops.

I intepret simongr suggesting when buying different fare buckets, it means buying different conditions attached to the ticket - and those different conditions are then factored into the pricing. Example, when someone buys a cheap economy ticket for $100 they get an economy seat to take them from A to B and it buys nothing else. However when another passenger pays $300 (on a higher fare bucket) for their ticket on the same flight, they are getting the same economy seat to take them from A to B plus it buys flexibility to change dates, cancel without penalties, name changes, and so on. The economy seat and flights remain the same - the conditions changes and these conditions do have a monetary value.

 

[medhead]

You make fair points,but one question,if Y is at the bottom how does discount Y,which is the same seat as ordinary Y fare?Am I ,as the holder of a red e deal seat any less entitled to the space reserved for someone who paid full whack economy?

This question goes to my thought that you are both buying a seat and not buying a seat. Take the bus to ferntree gully - you are not assured of a seat on that bus, its quite possible that you'd have to stand. For many good reasons, including safety airlines can't make you stand, so effectively they must be assigning the space per seat across the various Y fare points as an average. (I'm sure Jetstar would love a standing only section down the back if CASA would let them)

Plus as Simongr and Alanslegal mention higher priced Y fares have other tangible benefits.

 

[simongr]

Looks like we agree to disagree,simongr,because I believe you are paying for transport,just as you are with a public transport authority who charge you for a seat on the 5.10 to Ferntree Gully but don't guarantee you a specific seat.yet you can't demand compensation from them.

I do not believe that you are paying for a seat given that buses quote the number of acceptable pax as sitting and standing.

I think it is a bit fatuous to compare pricing differentials on full service carriers for differing levels of service to no frills airlines but if that is what helps you make your point - go for it. I assume that if you paid for a J seat and were given whY food, no lounge access and no express immigration that you would not complain based on the arguments that you have put forward here.

 

[Nigelinoz]

I do not believe that you are paying for a seat given that buses quote the number of acceptable pax as sitting and standing.

I think it is a bit fatuous to compare pricing differentials on full service carriers for differing levels of service to no frills airlines but if that is what helps you make your point - go for it. I assume that if you paid for a J seat and were given whY food, no lounge access and no express immigration that you would not complain based on the arguments that you have put forward here.

I think you're being unfair,at no point have I said that I wouldn't be extremely unhappy in those circumstances,I am simply trying to make the point that I believe that when it comes down purely to the terms under which you are carried that an airline could claim to have delivered their part of the bargain by transporting you from point a to point b regardless of the seat they put you in,the fact that in,I would think,99.9% (if not 100%)of cases you would be compensated,does not I think,change the fact that if they wanted to play hardball I am sure they could use any amount of legal niceties to show that they had done what they were contracted to do in transporting you,that is the only point I am making,(or trying to make).
I fully agree that if you pay for a J seat on a flight from a to b,you expect a J seat on a flight from a to b,but if the airline can't provide the J seat,but still gets you from a to b they may not have delivered all of their part of the contract but they have done most of what they were payed to do ,that's all I am saying,you don't agree with me,fine,I have no problem with that.
My point about the no frills vs full service airline is perfectly valid,they are both airlines and the thread title does not differentiate.
I guess it comes back to the point made earlier,what percentage of the fare is for transport and what percentage is extras like a class of seat,is there any way to find out?

 

[russ]

Isn't the answer to your concerns in the Conditions of Carriage that you quoted in the earlier thread? Well at least for QF? Or are you worried about the definition of the word "reasonable?"

We do not guarantee You any particular seat. We may need ti [sic] change your seat at any time, even after You have boarded the aircraft, as We may need to do this for operational, safety or security reasons. If We need to ask You to downgrade for any reason, We will at Your Option:

• provide You with an appropriate refund of the difference in fares (or an appropriate credit of Qantas Frequent Flyer points in the event that You are travelling on a Qantas Frequent Flyer Award), or
• accommodate You on a reasonable alternative available flight on Our services"

 

[Nigelinoz]

The only point I am seeking to make is this,although in,I would think,almost 100% of cases if you were downgraded to ,say a Y seat from a J seat you would be justifiably annoyed (and compensated) I think,
(Just my opinion,) that if it was a headline case and a "celebrity" was in the news complaining about not getting a first class seat ,then an airline would probably try and use the conditions of carriage to show that they had done what they were asked to do in transporting someone from point a to point b.
As to the success of that defence I can't say because I am not a lawyer,
but I've had enough exposure to the "fine print" to know that big business will try and use anything to deny responsibility.
But ,as I said,I reckon in almost all cases someone who had been downgraded wouldbe compensated anyway-and rightly so.

 

[kiwitripper64]

Back to original question, what rights do you have? As an example, what can Mr Ed do on if he purchesed a Y seat. This website says on-demand entertainment, meal, beverage and snacks provided.
On take-off, plane is full and Mr Ed is sitting next to passenger who not only physically takes up room in Mr Eds seat space, but also has a bad cold and would appear to be infectious. And then the TV coughs out.
So what does Mr Ed do. And no, thankfully this has never happened to me

 

[Groundfeeder]

Mr Ed should remove himself to the stables at the rear of the aircraft.

 

[Alanslegal]

If Mr Ed is feeling under the weather, and feels squashed, I'm sure he could move himself to the private suite of the toilet and use the seat in there

 

[Nigelinoz]

Back to original question, what rights do you have? As an example, what can Mr Ed do on if he purchesed a Y seat. This website says on-demand entertainment, meal, beverage and snacks provided.
On take-off, plane is full and Mr Ed is sitting next to passenger who not only physically takes up room in Mr Eds seat space, but also has a bad cold and would appear to be infectious. And then the TV coughs out.
So what does Mr Ed do. And no, thankfully this has never happened to me

Advise the CSM that he is not happy (Not that would do any good if the plane were full),provide feedback to the company a.s.a.p stating in clear and concise terms the reasons for his displeasure and hope that someone at the airline takes pityon him and gives him some compensation,but when it comes down to it probably not a lot that can be done-maybe get a good lawyer to write the letter.

 

[medhead]

Back to original question, what rights do you have? As an example, what can Mr Ed do on if he purchesed a Y seat. This website says on-demand entertainment, meal, beverage and snacks provided.
On take-off, plane is full and Mr Ed is sitting next to passenger who not only physically takes up room in Mr Eds seat space, but also has a bad cold and would appear to be infectious. And then the TV coughs out.
So what does Mr Ed do. And no, thankfully this has never happened to me

Ask fatboy next to him to breathe in the other direction.
Twist body 45 degrees away from fatboy and watch out for passing service tolleys.
Get his meal and Bevvy
Drink bevvy quick.
Take another bevvy for good measure.
Lean forward onto the tray table (or head onto reclined seat in front )
Go to sleep.

To paraphase - Harden up (and/or suck it up) Mr Ed

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hi all

The answer, in theory, to the original question is very very simple. The laws of contract determine exactly what you are entitled to when you purchase travel from an airline (or their agent etc).

This includes all the associated laws of contract including implied contracts, the effectiveness of terms and conditions, unfair contract terms etc etc.

Additionally, other laws provide sanctions in the event that individuals and/or companies do not deliver what they're supposed to. This includes regulations to do with safety (eg CAA requirements - these won't form part of a passenger contract), international regulations (such as the Warsaw/Montreal conventions), and other stuff such as consumer and protection laws (including those which prohibit false advertising).

Plus finally there is the 'good will' aspect of an airline's buisiness which will (one assumes) lead the airline to try to keep you happy and preseve your return business!

The trick is that all of these have to be combined to understand the true rights of a passenger, and in what circumstances it is reasonable to expect compensation.

Let's look at just a few examples:

• 'no refunds' - does not not apply to Jetstar or Qantas or any other airline just as it doesn't apply to any retailer. If the product you thought you were buying is no longer fit for purpose then you are entitled to a refund. For example, if you purchase Qantas, but they later changed to a Jetstar flight (and you aren't entitled to any free meals etc) then you could ask for a refund. Same if Qantas were to significantly retime a flight. If it no longer fits your purposes then you can get a refund.
• terms and conditions - like any laws surrounding contract, unfair or onerous terms will not be taken to apply unless they were bought to your attention. The airline has successfully argued that frequent travellers can be assumed to know terms and conditions, but airlines may have a hard time arguing this against a whole range of pax, including elderly, those that don't speak english etc etc etc
• misleading adverts - airlines like any other company can't be misleading. The test is fairly harsh against the company. It was posted earlier on these boards that the section of a QF add had to be withdrawn from UK screens because it showed a skybed mkII (fully flat) that wasn't yet available on flights ex UK (that will now have changed).
• right to enjoyment - if you enter into a contract for something you generally have some sort of rights to be able to enjoy the benefits of that contract. For example, you would expect to be able to sit anywhere on a QF flight and not have a smoker sit next to you. Or to have a drunk person sitting beside you (because the airline should not have let this person board in the first place). This is unlikely however to cover everyday things outside an airline's control such as a person with a cold or a baby crying. However... if a person had chicken-pox, rather than a cold, or the baby in question had been crying from check-in through to the boarding gate and hadn't stopped, then your right to recourse would be different!

Not to mention the querstion of when does an airline ticket actually form? (is the proposed agreement 'too vague' in nature because it doesn't guarantee the day, or time of departure, or even to take you to your final destination!).


Hope this clears up the question

Mel-T