What curfew? Jets by dozen break ban

[Yada Yada]

What curfew? Jets by dozen break ban
Sherrill Nixon - Urban Affairs Editor
June 20, 2006

DOZENS of international passenger flights are landing at Sydney Airport during the night ban each month, prompting new calls for flight restrictions to be tightened.

Every day up to four scheduled flights arrive at the airport as early as 5am despite the official curfew - imposed in 1995 to alleviate noise for nearby residents - operating from 11pm to 6am.

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What I find amusing about this report is that Warren Truss seems to have had no clue that scheduled flights land earlier than 6:00am every day in SYD. He said the following in parliament in response to questions from Mr Albanese:

"it is my understanding that scheduled services cannot arrive before 6am"

 

[NM]

The current curfew conditions permit a small number of arriving international flights to land between 5am and 6am. I am not sure of the exact number, but it is something like 5 or 6.

So these flights landing at this time are NOT breaking the curfew - they are permitted to land under the current curfew conditions.

Which is worse pollution - the noise of a jet landing over Botany Bay at 5am (they may only use runway 34L for these ops) or burning up to an hour of fuel while circling waiting for 6am following a long flight with favourable winds?

 

[bigjobs]

i flew in with QF from LAX one time last year and we had to slow down and zig zag our way towards Sydney for the last hour or so. we could have landed about 515am and were not allowed to (this what the captain told us) land until 6pm. touched down about 605am

up here is brisbane the BNE-LAX flights land when they get here, we touched down at 5.50am yesterday ... i think there is a curfew here to, of some sort.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

we could have landed about 515am and were not allowed to (this what the captain told us) land until 6pm.

Another reason for fuel fine! :shock: I didn't think they could fly around for so many hours without onboard fuelling capacity (say you weren't on AF1 by any chance?).

up here is brisbane the BNE-LAX flights land when they get here, we touched down at 5.50am yesterday ... i think there is a curfew here to, of some sort.

I wasn't aware LAX had a curfew.

 

[NM]

i flew in with QF from LAX one time last year and we had to slow down and zig zag our way towards Sydney for the last hour or so. we could have landed about 515am and were not allowed to (this what the captain told us) land until 6pm. touched down about 605am

It would therefore appear that the slots permitted between 5am and 6am were already taken so your flight had to await its turn. These pre-6am slots are usually filled with Asia arrivals.

up here is brisbane the BNE-LAX flights land when they get here, we touched down at 5.50am yesterday ... i think there is a curfew here to, of some sort.

I assume you mean LAX-BNE flights. BNE flights can arrive over the bay at any time of day or night. There are regular arrivals pre 5am. MEL does not have a surfew either.

 

[Groundfeeder]

BNE flights can arrive over the bay at any time of day or night.

Actually, I can personally verify that they can land on 01 in the wee hours as the SMOKA 8 ILS approach to 01 takes them right over my house at The Gap. Not a problem to me but other residents probably don't share my placidity.

 

[NM]

Actually, I can personally verify that they can land on 01 in the wee hours as the SMOKA 8 ILS approach to 01 takes them right over my house at The Gap. Not a problem to me but other residents probably don't share my placidity.

Yes, I know they do - and have personally experience it. Though they do try to land to the south when conditions permit, which is the case most mornings.

 

[N860CR]

When I came back from BKK last month on BA the flight was scheduled to land in SYD at 6:05, however due to a tailwind the actual time was set to be more like 5:30. The captain said (among other things... those BA guy's know how to talk!) that he'd have to slow down in order to land after 6am. When getting to SYD, he ended up having to do a second approach as the first was going to have the aircraft landing fractionally prior to 6am.

Seems that the allowance for flight arriving between 5 and 6am is already accounted for

 

[Mal]

On a recent flight from SIN, we were allowed to land in SYD just after 5am.

Even with that dispensation, we still circled around and did nothing for quite a few minutes until actually starting the approach at 5am. I think we touched down at 5:10am.

We landed from the ocean, and took a really long path to the approach (I get a feeling we were high up over one of the National Parks, then headed out to the sea, and back in). Someone might be able to help me name the national park !

I saw at least one other plane doing a similar circuit, and another big jet had just landed in front of us, so we weren't the only ones with that dispensation.

I've also been on flights where they've circled, umm'd and aah'd over the landing due to the curfew. There are pretty big fines if they break the curfew without an exemption!

I don't know if I agree with flight curfews at Airports or not. My thoughts are not really relevant for this thread, but it is still something I havn't made a decision on.

 

[Yada Yada]

We landed from the ocean, and took a really long path to the approach (I get a feeling we were high up over one of the National Parks, then headed out to the sea, and back in). Someone might be able to help me name the national park !

Mal,

The SIN flights come in over the Royal National Park from the west, fly over the coast, turn to the north, and make final approach over Botany Bay.

I have arrived on QF6 and BA15 between 5.00 and 6.00am.

 

[markis10]

The easement of restrictions to allow a few flights to land before 6 has been the case for many a year now and is hardly news, what next, shock horror, there are freight jets that take off all night from Sydney!

Sometimes an aircraft may try to get in earlier than normal as a result of favorable tailwinds or news from company that the normal pre 6am aircraft was not going to make it (such as QF6), only to have their slot taken by another aircraft resulting in the need to slow or hold. Typically the LAX flight is carrying one to two hours reserve fuel so its not an issue.

Personally I think the 5AM dispensations make sense, having jumbos full of aircraft flying around waiting to land during the last hour of a controllers shift is a receipe for disaster.

 

[Dave Noble]

Personally I think the 5AM dispensations make sense, having jumbos full of aircraft flying around waiting to land during the last hour of a controllers shift is a receipe for disaster.

Why? The flight can leave later from its destination or , if strong tailwinds, slow down so that its groundspeed is that which was planned . No good reason to breach curfew conditions. People in the area have a reasonable expectation of ability to sleep at night

Dave

 

[JohnK]

Why? The flight can leave later from its destination or , if strong tailwinds, slow down so that its groundspeed is that which was planned . No good reason to breach curfew conditions. People in the area have a reasonable expectation of ability to sleep at night

I agree. The offending flights tend to be the ones arriving from LHR or LAX. Surely they can leave 1-2 hours later from destination or even reduce cruising speed as you mention to ensure they are here after 6am. Still leaves plenty of time for passengers to make connections to most destinations.

 

[bravoecho1]

There is an interesting article in today's SMH. It states that the curfew legislation allows up to 5 international flights to land between 5 and 6am per day, up to a maximum of 24 per week.

What is amusing is that there is an illustration of what flights landed this morning. Included in the list was AF from CDG and AA from LAX - I think they mean the QF codeshares.

 

[markis10]

I agree. The offending flights tend to be the ones arriving from LHR or LAX. Surely they can leave 1-2 hours later from destination or even reduce cruising speed as you mention to ensure they are here after 6am. Still leaves plenty of time for passengers to make connections to most destinations.

You can only reduce your cruising speed by so much at altitude before you stall and drop out of the sky, the stall envelope at 40000 feet is quite narrow in fact as far as airspeed goes.

More of an influence is exerted by upper atmosphere winds than pilot controlled airspeed for this reason, and over a 14- 15 hour flight there can be quite a variance in winds compared to that forecasted, which results in an ETA coming forward by up to an hour, this variance often is not predictable prior to departure. An aircraft landing early in this position is possibly saving 8 tonnes of JetA1 as well.

I used to live in Earlwood so I am familiar with the operations of Sydney airport from a residents perspective as well as from a pilots and ATC perspective, I also lived in Tullamarine for a few years and after the first few days got used to the 3AM arrivals. After all 5Am arrivals have been going since 1989, if it is such a nuisance then why is it raring its ugly head now, the aircraft have certainly got quieter since then:?: .

 

[JohnK]

I used to live in Earlwood so I am familiar with the operations of Sydney airport from a residents perspective as well as from a pilots and ATC perspective, I also lived in Tullamarine for a few years and after the first few days got used to the 3AM arrivals. After all 5Am arrivals have been going since 1989, if it is such a nuisance then why is it raring its ugly head now, the aircraft have certainly got quieter since then:?: .

Don't know why the issue is raising it's head now but I can't see the big deal about arriving here before 6am anyway. Just leave 1-2 hours later and get here later. As for favourable winds allowing you to make up 1 hour from LAX-SYD then if you plan to be arrive at 8am and actually arrive at 7am then all the better. What is the obsession with arriving in the middle of the night?

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

Flight times over the pacific are not necessarily well able to be predicted - there are no ground stations to make measurements, and other aircraft all tend to be flying around the same time so you're already well on the way before you get notice that flight time may be an hour longer or shorter than planned.

Planning for an 8am arrival wont necessarily work. Some flights take longer than planned and thus would arrive at 9am - and knock on effect of misconnecting pax. Also the early morning is a busy period for SYD with banks of arriving and departing flights. Moving all the flights planned to arrive say before 7am to a later time will mean other flights also need to be pushed back (not only to deal with connections but also due to airport capacity issues).

Before anyone asks I have lived near to international airports and also under final approach/takeoff path for international airports.

 

[JohnK]

Moving all the flights planned to arrive say before 7am to a later time will mean other flights also need to be pushed back (not only to deal with connections but also due to airport capacity issues).

I know the scheduling requires some effort but I think it can be done. I don't understand why flights need to arrive in SYD/MEL at 4am or 5am. It is still the middle of the night. No trains, buses and if relatives/friends need to pick you up then they need to be up at 3am to get to airport on time. Surely arrivals around 6am or later would be a better for all concerned.

I am not having a whinge but just don't understand why flights need to arrive in the middle of the night. And yes I live near SYD airport and occassionally I am woken before 6am by departing flights not arriving flights. I think they have snuck this in somewhere along the line. Luckily my house is not affected by the flight paths used every day.

 

[thadocta]

Why? The flight can leave later from its destination or , if strong tailwinds, slow down so that its groundspeed is that which was planned . No good reason to breach curfew conditions. People in the area have a reasonable expectation of ability to sleep at night

Ah, the good old NIMBY argument.

These people moved into the area knowing there was an airport located nearby, and have generally experienced reduced property values as a result, with the consequent reduced purchase price or weekly rentals. They want the cheap properties but are not prepared to put up with the reason why they got the property at a knock-down price.

I have lived under a flight path (and alongside a heavily trafficked coal railway line) and I knew - before I moved there - what the situation was WRT noise, I could hardly complain about it afterwards.

What ever happened to all the money we have been paying for all these years in the form of the noise levy? Wasn't it supposed to soundproof houses which were directly affected by aircraft noise?

And why is a 747 not permitted to land (a relatively quiet procedure) when cargo aircraft - including 727's - are permitted to take-off at all hours (a MUCH noisier experience).

Dave

 

[bigjobs]

It would therefore appear that the slots permitted between 5am and 6am were already taken so your flight had to await its turn. These pre-6am slots are usually filled with Asia arrivals.

Nah, it wasn't that ... when we landed we were the only aircraft there. The Asia arrivals are closer to 7am. When QF176 lands in BNE in the northern hemisphere daylight savings time it lands at 6am. during the nthn non daylight savings time it lands at 7am.

everytime i have been on it and landed at 6am (or just prior) we are the only ones there ... it's sweet.

[/quote=NM]I assume you mean LAX-BNE flights. BNE flights can arrive over the bay at any time of day or night. There are regular arrivals pre 5am. MEL does not have a surfew either.[/quote]

yes you are correct, i did mean LAX - BNE.