True comparisons of QFF with other airlines

[JohnMcC]

I know there are many threads in this forum about the Qantas frequent flyer programme, but I really think that Qantas needs to be held accountable for the poor state of this programme when compared with other airlines. I don’t think that it rewards true frequent flyers nearly enough and I would like to discuss some specific examples.

Firstly, I am a platinum level flyer with Qantas and by the end of this month will have renewed my status for next year. I am also about to hit 1K with United Airlines and with Japan Airlines I am at Titanium level (unpublicised premium level above their normal top tier of Diamond). I am not saying this to brag, no sane person voluntarily does this many miles (!) but I do want to show my Bona Fides for the purposes of this discussion.

Secondly, I do not wish to join the Qantas bashing brigade. I like the cabin crew, I like the service, I like the check in, I like the lounges, I like the website. I don’t blame the current management because they don’t have the 787s that would have reduced their fuel costs so the international sector would have turned a profit this year. I am doing a Circle Pacific with them starting next weekend and I truly hope they survive and prosper. (Although curiously, those promised lower fares seem to have disappeared for this trip!)

Okay, enough caveats. Why do I share my business with the other carriers? There are a number of reasons but high on the list is the rotten frequent flyer programme that Qantas has and which clearly has to change. You all know the ridiculously high number of points (miles) required to score a seat in any class with Qantas, and despite the number of people who say they have no problems getting seats, I am one of many who find it almost impossible to do so.

On the other hand, Japan Airlines recognizes their most frequent flyers by giving them a special window of opportunity to book seats a month before they are opened up to the rest of the frequent flyers. And to fly to London or New York from Australia costs 110,000 miles – IN BUSINESS CLASS. The equivalent Qantas requirement is embarrassing.

And once a customer hits Diamond (the equivalent of Platinum) there are a number of guaranteed, no questions asked, upgrades for paid tickets. Yes, I have treated myself to some wonderful experiences as a result!

And today, United sent out some details of the 2012 program for Mileage Plus which includes these two wonderfully attractive proposals:

Unrestricted access to United Standard Awards. All MileagePlus Premier members will have unrestricted access to United Standard Awards. If there's a United seat for sale, these members can get it with award miles, guaranteed, even if it's the last seat on the airplane.

And

Economy Plus® seating. All Premier members will continue to enjoy complimentary access to Economy Plus seating when flying the new United. Premier 1K, Premier Platinum and Premier Gold members can request Economy Plus at time of booking, and Premier Silver members can request at time of check-in.

“…even if it's the last seat on the airplane.”!!!!!

Now be honest, and forget that legendary time you booked the international seat to your chosen destination on the date and in the class that you wanted, why would anyone who accrues significant mileage by spending so much time to in the air give their loyalty to the Qantas Frequent Flyer programme? I ask this rhetorically because I don’t believe the Qantas management are in the frame of mind to consider just how insulting their frequent flyer programme is for true frequent flyers. Given their fragile economic state, they certainly are not going to turn the cash cow that is their programme into something truly worthwhile for the frequent flyer who has a choice. But all of this dancing around and pretending that frequent flyers will be warmly welcomed back after the recent lockout is further proof that the management don’t even begin to understand one of their most important assets.

And despite how my comments may appear, I would love nothing more than for Qantas to be stunningly and permanently successful. I wish Qantas all the best, but I worry for their future.

Now, over to you. How do we get Qantas to stop messing around and actually start valuing their frequent flyers?

JOHN.

 

[Limewood]

As a SG on QFF i don't understand if I want to book an anyseat award internationally (SYD/LAX/SYD) in J at best points deal why i have to book min. 10 months out!, I can book one but, try and book two (in J) then points for each can more than double, its wrong.

Many say phone QF up, why should I have too and lose even more FF points, again it wrong. Many here and on other forums have been complaining about this treatment of QF members and that dam web site and its lack of flights, its about dam time they came to the party and fixed it up properly. OVER TO YOU QF.

 

[anat0l]

As a SG on QFF i don't understand if I want to book an anyseat award internationally (SYD/LAX/SYD) in J at best points deal why i have to book min. 10 months out!, I can book one but, try and book two (in J) then points for each can more than double, its wrong.

Because I, as a WP, am entitled to those J seats more than you are as a lower SG

I assumed you also tried Classic Awards. Yes, you get no points or SCs on Classic Awards, but since when should ASA availability (at Classic prices) be upheld as the new standard? Seems unfair, though I will concur that premium seat availability - as a whole on QF - is thin, though as WP I've had good luck overall on finding seats I want (commiserations to the OP for his bad luck).


High points cost - yes, that's true. But there are a fair bevy of other FFPs around the world that aren't much better. That doesn't make QF "good", but as you've done you have to find another FFP that will then suit better, and if earn and burn is the main aim then it's not necessarily that easy. I'm not saying categorically that it's not possible to do better than QF, but it is very highly dependant on how much you fly and what you fly (i.e. cabin class, long/short haul, full/discounted tickets, etc.), so the evaluation then of QF vs other programs is based very much on individuals. Lufthansa's Miles & More is a good example. Cost in points for redemptions can be just as high if not greater than QF in a non-trivial number of cases (not to mention that the earning of those points is not as rosy as QF on its mainline Economy giving 1 point per mile across the board), and the program highly rewards those who fly Business and First rather than Economy (you rake in a bonus of 100% (i.e. twice the mileage) for flying J and 200% (i.e. three times the mileage) for flying in F). And of course like almost all non-American based FFPs, LH levy a considerable component in surcharges with awards (mostly fuel, of course).

Benefits offered definitely look good on paper, but taking advantage of those benefits and obtaining them is a different thing. AA offer eVIP upgrades to Executive Platinums (oneworld Emeralds), but to get Executive Platinum you need at least 100 sectors / 100,000 BIS miles / 100,000 elite miles - in many cases much more flying required (and certainly in premium cabins) than that on QF for the Platinum tier (QF WP1 might rival Executive Platinum in that regard, but that's another story). Once you get those eVIPs, you can only use them on AA operated flights. If you don't mind flying AA, fine. But you'll still need to use your regular miles to fly another airline's premium cabin if that is what you want. Hope you have some friends to use your eVIPs then.

Going back to LH, Senators (Star Alliance Gold equivalent) are entitled to use a benefit called Senator Premium awards. Basically, it's an any seat award and the cost is 150% of the normal points cost, and is pretty much unconditional. Nice benefit, especially if you could potentially combine it with a points overdraft. Senators also get upgrade vouchers. Now the downsides: there's no better elite bonus in points from Frequent Traveller (Silver) to Senator (let alone no benefit to HON Circle) - the benefit is fixed at 25% bonus. Also, to get Senator, you need 100,000 status miles (Executive bonus miles do count towards this) or 130,000 if you are a resident of Germany. Not a short amount of points at all, and you'll only be able to access Business and Senator lounges at best (no First lounges and certainly not the First Class Terminal in FRA).

Another extreme (and perhaps short-living) example: BD Diamond Club. Star Alliance Gold tier is easy to achieve and earn and burn is one of the best in the world (even better when you get an Indian Call Centre consultant helping you make bookings who doesn't follow the rules too closely). The rest of the benefits of Diamond Club Gold are.... well, pretty bland. Upgrades can only be used on BD metal and by that time you're probably wondering mostly why you didn't just fly the Lufthansa group instead.


The point is that if that if QFF were truly horrible then for starters on this board we aren't that stupid - we'd move. The neo-VA wave isn't a factor - the malaise you talk about has been going on at QF for years now (i.e. "short" availability of premium seats, no good upgrades, high costs of award seats, etc.) and the alternatives have been relatively similar, so if there was a much better reason to go to another carrier I think most of the board would have moved. But, they haven't. Why?

Sure there's a "handcuff" value at play here with elite benefits, but to what degree are elite benefits better than something else that might be more important to someone, e.g. earning and burning awards? And yes there are a marked number here who fly QF regularly on domestic, and hence that is another "handcuff". But there are others which fly non-QF domestically or don't fly a lot domestically - almost any highest tier elite on this board can't get their status without some international flying (yes, I know there are some whose elite status is completely domestic, and my hat goes off to you) - yet some of them are still on the QFF program - why?


Once again, not saying that any of this should make QFF's program "good". But in my search to find a better FFP that suits my needs and balances what I want out of a FFP, it's not as easy as I thought it would be. I don't know - perhaps I'm stupid in not evaluating other programs studiously and accurately, but from my judgement and considering my flying needs, I haven't found great alternatives. The alternatives I have are because I want more options of flying other carriers who are not oneworld. Similarly I could give up flying oneworld / QF in major and switch my effort to another alliance / carriers in full, but I still want to maintain my options in oneworld. That's a decision I made (to have those options) - you can call that a foolhardy one at will.

Incidentally if I did or intended to do a lot more premium flying, I definitely think my choice of FFP would change. To who is undetermined.

As it stands from your evaluation, JAL Mileage Bank and United seem to fulfil your needs much better than QFF. So be it. To answer your question of how we can get QFF to improve for the needs of FFs, without imparting the conventional advice, I don't know. But not every QFF member is necessarily disgruntled as you are, and not because they are "fanbois" or blindly loyal, but because they are exacting a value out of the program that you would better get out of a program which is not QFF.



Ironically for the United Economy Plus benefit, this used to be open for all Premier levels at time of booking. It has only been recently changed (I'll avoid using the 'e' word here) so that only the higher tiers can request at booking. This has started to alienate some Silver members because the low qualification for Economy Plus used to be a real boon for them - not anymore, unless you catch lucky.

 

[serfty]

Qantas FF flyer has not had any significant competition for the last 10 years, in that time there have been few business reasons to improve it (for members) - and they haven't!.

I am WP, Lifetime SG and Gold Elite with AirNZ - I am really only interested in status and the benifits that come from that - main one for me is that AirNZ provides me with Upgrades that can be confirmed upon request immediately after booking (need the appropriate class available), Qantas doesn't.

If it wasn't for any-seat awards earning Status I would have flown Qantas much less in recent times.

 

[juddles]

.... I definitely think my choice of FFP would change. To who is undetermined.

.....

To me the last straw was Platinum One, specifically the requirements for Qantas metal flights. I am doing about 4000 SC points a year on One World, but of that only about 1500 is on QF. So I miss out on Platinum One. I am not based in Australia, but due to some nostalgic/patriotic reason I am still with QFF. That will now change. Am better off with LAN and their more secure upgrades. Shame. But upgrades are to me the only really true benefit. Lounge access and seat selection when you are flying J anyway??

Edit: But i still do love Qantas - while doing this post am sitting in the Flounge in LAX - almost finished a bottle of their Jack Daniels Single Barrel selection. The Qantas lounges piss all over the South American / USA equivalents. Flew out of Aruba this morning - and was rejected by the VIP lounge despite flying J with AA and being One World Emerald. The nice lady explained that AA didn't want to pay the lounge there anymore, so only Priority Access or whatever they're called could enter.

 

[amaroo]

Qantas FF flyer has not had any significant competition for the last 10 years, in that time there have been few business reasons to improve it (for members) - and they haven't!.

Agree totally with your comment.

Excitingly looking forward to an energised DJ/VA getting stuck into QF with their planned partnerships with SQ and really hoping that they join *A as a full member. Once this happens we will finally have true competition for QF to counter.....the best part is FF already align with QF will probably do nothing but QF will be force to start looking after us better.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

I don’t believe the Qantas management are in the frame of mind to consider just how insulting their frequent flyer programme is for true frequent flyers. Given their fragile economic state, they certainly are not going to turn the cash cow that is their programme into something truly worthwhile for the frequent flyer who has a choice. But all of this dancing around and pretending that frequent flyers will be warmly welcomed back after the recent lockout is further proof that the management don’t even begin to understand one of their most important assets.

QANTAS, compared to JAL and UA, appears to be quite financially stable. Perhaps by giving *less* away (because of a lack of competition, they don't have to), QANTAS is still financially viable, can afford new planes etc.

From a management perspective, I'd hazard a guess that QANTAS management think they're doing a far better job than JAL's management. Unless you call running the company into bankruptcy good management

 

[simongr]

QANTAS, compared to JAL and UA, appears to be quite financially stable. Perhaps by giving *less* away (because of a lack of competition, they don't have to), QANTAS is still financially viable, can afford new planes etc.

From a management perspective, I'd hazard a guess that QANTAS management think they're doing a far better job than JAL's management. Unless you call running the company into bankruptcy good management

As you can see I did like this post - the only thing is that we have heard this line often and for years "All the US airlines have better programs but they are going bust" - the fact is that they haven't gone bust so maybe we are "drinking the kool aid" a little in this regard.

 

[JohnMcC]

QANTAS, compared to JAL and UA, appears to be quite financially stable. Perhaps by giving *less* away (because of a lack of competition, they don't have to), QANTAS is still financially viable, can afford new planes etc.

From a management perspective, I'd hazard a guess that QANTAS management think they're doing a far better job than JAL's management. Unless you call running the company into bankruptcy good management

Hmm. The JAL problems were clearly caused by politicians telling the airline what to do and where to fly. As part of looking after retired politicians and bureaucrats, Japan built airports all over the country, in places no one flies to and JAL, as the "national carrier" were forced to schedule empty flights to deserted airports and kept pouring money in rather than let them go bankrupt. The first thing the new government did was allow JAL to go bankrupt so they could drop the stupid routes and restructure. And bring in new management whose next step after financially consolidating themselves was to improve the FF program. Sorry, my points still stand. Treat the FF negligently and it comes back to bite you.

The additional lesson is: let the government dictate what is "right" for a carrier and you end up losing money.

 

[Robert K]

As you can see I did like this post - the only thing is that we have heard this line often and for years "All the US airlines have better programs but they are going bust" - the fact is that they haven't gone bust so maybe we are "drinking the kool aid" a little in this regard.

They have pretty dreadful lounges tho

 

[AnonymousCoward]

As you can see I did like this post - the only thing is that we have heard this line often and for years "All the US airlines have better programs but they are going bust" - the fact is that they haven't gone bust so maybe we are "drinking the kool aid" a little in this regard.

They haven't stopped flying, but (other than AA) all the majors have been in/out of Chapter 11 bankruptcy and re-organisations AFAICT.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

As Serfty said, "no competition".
Why bother to be competitive when you have a monopoly (just like J Class domestically, until recently).
Now that VA have J CLass, a new FFP and Lounges, QF will have to pick up their game.

 

[simongr]

They haven't stopped flying, but (other than AA) all the majors have been in/out of Chapter 11 bankruptcy and re-organisations AFAICT.

But they havent stopped flying unlike Ansett, Compass...