New type of ticketing problem - same QF response

[Happy Dude]

Well it's new to me at least.

Trying to get from Hamburg to Abu Dhabi. No luck with VA points but QF tosses up an EK flight paired with a bus to Abu Dhabi that also had an EK number.

Booked it. Got confirmation, booking ref, fees pending from credit card, shows up in MMB etc- but no ticket after a few hours and couldn't send an itinerary from MMB.

Called up and, eventually, was told the final destination was not valid so no ticket. Agent offered to cancel and rebook HAM-DXB. It took over an hour, despite it being a 3-minute exercise on the QF site. The agent managed to get the departure date wrong, clearly mixing it up with the next-day arrival date.

The salt in the wound was being charged 7,700 points assistance fee per person, despite no mention of that.

Back on the phone and second agent can see what's happened and agrees assistance fee should not be charged. But now the original departure time for my date is unavailable for some reason. Then after yet more hours, I get a ticket for an earlier flight on the right day and agent then suggests the assistance fee should apply.

Email to the reward ticket escalation address fired off. Entirely within QF's control and their making and yet I get the red hot poker. Mercy!

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Given you are holding a confirmed reservation, EU261 makes it quite clear that the airline is obligated to provide the flight and that they are on the hook for any delays, cancellations, etc. The second you receive that confirmation is the moment the contract has started. I'm not sure who you elevate this to but it should be quite cut and dry: they need to get you from your origin to your destination on the scheduled date by any means, and if you end up arriving more than 4 hours after the scheduled arrival they are on the hook for that too in terms of compensation!

-RooFlyer88

 

[RooFlyer]

EU261 makes it quite clear that the airline is obligated to provide the flight and that they are on the hook for any delays, cancellations, etc.

Its Qantas ....

 

[MrJetset]

Given you are holding a confirmed reservation, EU261 makes it quite clear that the airline is obligated to provide the flight and that they are on the hook for any delays, cancellations, etc. The second you receive that confirmation is the moment the contract has started. I'm not sure who you elevate this to but it should be quite cut and dry: they need to get you from your origin to your destination on the scheduled date by any means, and if you end up arriving more than 4 hours after the scheduled arrival they are on the hook for that too in terms of compensation!

-RooFlyer88

Please stop giving misinformation all over AFF. You are reducing the impact of this forum to help people by this odd compulsion to post so much. You are not the expert you seem to think you are.

EU261 does not apply. It is not a:

• Flight delay;
• Cancellation;
• Denied boarding; or
• Downgrade to a lower class of service.

QF do not ticket DXB-AUH by bus. The OP should have just booked HAM-DXB and made their own arrangements.

It’s likely the original flight was pulled from inventory despite not being ticketed. It msg reappear. It’s QF’s mistake booking the wrong date, but they cannot force EK’s hand to rerelease the original requested date.

I would keep checking and if you have the points book the flight again if it reappears, then cancel the wrong date once the second is ticketed.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Please stop giving misinformation all over AFF. You are reducing the impact of this forum to help people by this odd compulsion to post so much. You are not the expert you seem to think you are.

EU261 does not apply. It is not a:

• Flight delay;
• Cancellation;
• Denied boarding; or
• Downgrade to a lower class of service.

By your own admission, this is a case of denied boarding. Had the OP simply ignored any red flags they had and simply tried checking in for the flight (and failed) they would be defecto denied boarding and due the compensation, especially if QF made no effort to notify them of the issue. If QF cancelled and refunded the flights at a later point that would be considered a cancellation per EU261 as well. It doesn't matter if the airline initiated it, they are still obligated by the terms of EU261. Otherwise, airlines around the world would simply cancel and refund ticketed flights whenever the going is tough. After all, it's probably much cheaper than having to reroute, provide hotel and cash compensation.

QF do not ticket DXB-AUH by bus. The OP should have just booked HAM-DXB and made their own arrangements.

The OP needn't know what routes QF does and does not ticket. It's not their job! They are a traveller making a flight booking. If QF presents a routing as available to book, it should be bookable. I can think of countless award bookings which would raise eyebrows but are totally legitimate, such as CI between SYD and TPE despite CI being part of a rival airline alliance.

It’s likely the original flight was pulled from inventory despite not being ticketed. It msg reappear. It’s QF’s mistake booking the wrong date, but they cannot force EK’s hand to rerelease the original requested date.

Unsure how partner award ticketing works on QF, but certainly on AC and StarNet, they can make partner award availability reappear in the event of cancellations and IRROPs. In my case, AC cancelled the flights I was on with them to ICN booked as an award ticket and was offered a number of options via their self serve tool including BR and OZ.

I would keep checking and if you have the points book the flight again if it reappears, then cancel the wrong date once the second is ticketed.

Respectfully disagree, the onus is on QF to make this right. I would escalate the issue with the rewards escalation team since they dropped the ball here by not honouring the flights they ticketed in breach of Australian Consumer law and likely EU261 had the OP tried to check in with the confirmation they had. And to top it off the QFF experts on the phone screwed up the booking even more by selecting the wrong date. It should be trivial for QF to find EK availability, they operated several flights a day out of Hamburg on wide bodies. This nonsense argument that there is no classic award availability is irrelevant. They hold a confirmed ticket, it's on QF to make it right even if they have to go out and buy the cash ticket. Other airlines would do the same when they stuff things up this badly. It's the cost of doing business when you run an award scheme that makes these types of errors in booking!

-RooFlyer88

 

[ChrisMars]

As EU261 and ancellation are being discussed, without knowing travel dates, I just want to point out that cancellation done 2 weeks or more from travel date fall outside of EU261.

 

[Cheatah]

As EU261 and cancellation are being discussed, without knowing travel dates, I just want to point out that cancellation done 2 weeks or more from travel date fall outside of EU261.

Under EU261 if your flight is cancelled you have the right to choose between reimbursement or re-routing - regardless of when the flight is cancelled, and it can be on any carrier if the airline cant accommodate you as close as possible to the original schedule on their own services.

If your flight is cancelled within 2 weeks you can also claim compensation in certain circumstances (ie if they rerouted you but your arrival time was later than original schedule)

EU261 applies to non EU carriers departing EU cities - however usually its the operating carrier that the obligation falls upon, so QF as an agent wouldnt be liable. (Although I have enjoyed reminding QF of EU261 previously when they have been liable!)

Air passenger rights - Your Europe

Travellers' rights - flight delays, cancellations and overbooking (passengers unable to fly on flight they booked)

europa.eu

 

[Quickstatus]

EU261

What's the obsession with EU261?.
While it does provide a path to reimbursement/rerouting, I would still rather get the ticketing sorted out prior to departure. Nothing guarantees the ticketed itinerary will be fulfilled - but neither will EU362. Always better to get the correct ticketing in the first instance.

A confirmed reservation is nothing without the ticket

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Please stop giving misinformation all over AFF. You are reducing the impact of this forum to help people by this odd compulsion to post so much. You are not the expert you seem to think you are.

EU261 does not apply. It is not a:

• Flight delay;
• Cancellation;
• Denied boarding; or
• Downgrade to a lower class of service.

QF do not ticket DXB-AUH by bus. The OP should have just booked HAM-DXB and made their own arrangements.

It’s likely the original flight was pulled from inventory despite not being ticketed. It msg reappear. It’s QF’s mistake booking the wrong date, but they cannot force EK’s hand to rerelease the original requested date.

I would keep checking and if you have the points book the flight again if it reappears, then cancel the wrong date once the second is ticketed.

This is correct.

EU261 does not apply for the connection to AUH because the ticket was never issued, for a ‘flight’ (bus) which cannot be ticketed by QF.

As the passenger does not hold a valid reservation or ticket on the connecting bus service, EU261 does not apply.

Additional comments by other posters are also correct in that no compensation is due if the cancellation is more than 14 days out, but alternative routings need to be offered. But all of that is dependent on having a valid reservation.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I think this thread raises an interesting question: when does a ticket you purchase become invalid? Is it simply when the airline says so? If that's the case, I reckon many airlines would happily claim your ticket is invalid to get out of their contractual obligations! Is it when the error is so egregious that any reasonable person could clearly see it's in error (i.e. a $10 F fare from Sydney to Dubai)? I would make the argument that any reasonable traveller searching HAM to AUH on the QF website could not have foreseen that the option provided by QF was invalid. Consumer protection laws aren't designed for the savvy travellers like us who know the intricacies of routing rules and could book QF RTW awards in our sleep. No, it's designed for normal people who want to book a holiday and simply know where they are going from and heading to.

This is correct.

EU261 does not apply for the connection to AUH because the ticket was never issued, for a ‘flight’ (bus) which cannot be ticketed by QF.

My question is, in what sense was the ticket issued in error? It would be one thing if the OP bought a J ticket from Hamburg to Abu Dhabi on EK in First for $10, that would clearly be an error fare. I don't think it was the case (unless I misread what was written) that the OP paid fewer points or taxes and fees with this booking compared to other options. The OP bought a ticket from HAM to AUH, which on its face is perfectly valid. How would any traveller reasonably know that a segment which has a QF/EK flight number that is operated by a bus invalid? Indeed, flights that are operated as bus routes are quite common in the US, I would point people to American's extensive use of bus "flights" in the Northeast. Also in the eyes of EU261 connections are irrelevant, all that matters is the origin and destination, since a connection is a technicality that has no impact on the final destination. Indeed, there has been good case law where courts have ruled that even if delays occur on connecting flights operating entirely outside of the EU, EU261 would still apply since all that matters is when you arrive at the final destination on the ticket.

What's the obsession with EU261?.

The obsession with EU261 comes from the fact that it is a consumer protection that has been litigated ad infinitum in the courts with courts overwhelming ruling in favour of the traveller. The only other fallback provision the traveller would have would be international treaties such as the Montreal Convention which provides compensation up to $7000 USD in the event of these delays and cancellations. Aside from that, I suppose the OP could make an argument that QF violated its contract with them by not providing the services they paid for and they made plans in reliance of holding a valid ticket.

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think this thread raises an interesting question: when does a ticket you purchase become invalid? Is it simply when the airline says so? If that's the case, I reckon many airlines would happily claim your ticket is invalid to get out of their contractual obligations! Is it when the error is so egregious that any reasonable person could clearly see it's in error (i.e. a $10 F fare from Sydney to Dubai)? I would make the argument that any reasonable traveller searching HAM to AUH on the QF website could not have foreseen that the option provided by QF was invalid. Consumer protection laws aren't designed for the savvy travellers like us who know the intricacies of routing rules and could book QF RTW awards in our sleep. No, it's designed for normal people who want to book a holiday and simply know where they are going from and heading to.

My question is, in what sense was the ticket issued in error? It would be one thing if the OP bought a J ticket from Hamburg to Abu Dhabi on EK in First for $10, that would clearly be an error fare. I don't think it was the case (unless I misread what was written) that the OP paid fewer points or taxes and fees with this booking compared to other options. The OP bought a ticket from HAM to AUH, which on its face is perfectly valid. How would any traveller reasonably know that a segment which has a QF/EK flight number that is operated by a bus invalid? Indeed, flights that are operated as bus routes are quite common in the US, I would point people to American's extensive use of bus "flights" in the Northeast. Also in the eyes of EU261 connections are irrelevant, all that matters is the origin and destination, since a connection is a technicality that has no impact on the final destination. Indeed, there has been good case law where courts have ruled that even if delays occur on connecting flights operating entirely outside of the EU, EU261 would still apply since all that matters is when you arrive at the final destination on the ticket.


The obsession with EU261 comes from the fact that it is a consumer protection that has been litigated ad infinitum in the courts with courts overwhelming ruling in favour of the traveller. The only other fallback provision the traveller would have would be international treaties such as the Montreal Convention which provides compensation up to $7000 USD in the event of these delays and cancellations. Aside from that, I suppose the OP could make an argument that QF violated its contract with them by not providing the services they paid for and they made plans in reliance of holding a valid ticket.

-RooFlyer88

I the OP’s case the ticket was never issued… hence the call to QF to find out why. At that stage they were told it couldn’t be ticketed.

At some stage without a ticket the amount pending on the OP’s CC would have been reversed and the booking would have dropped away.

No ticket, no reservation, no EU261.

 

[serfty]

A confirmed reservation is nothing without the ticket

No ticket, no reservation, no EU261

Exactly right, EU261 can generally only apply to a booking that had been ticketed in the first place.

In this case there has been no ticketing.

My question is, in what sense was the ticket issued in error?

The ticket was never issued. It was the Qantas allowing the initial booking to process and a PNR to be created that was the error.

Please stop giving misinformation all over AFF. You are reducing the impact of this forum to help people by this odd compulsion to post so much. You are not the expert you seem to think you are.

Agreed!

 

[muppet]

Why is qantas.com delivering up flight combinations it cannot ticket?

 

[serfty]

Why is qantas.com delivering up flight combinations it cannot ticket?

Thinking about this, I can't think of a reason this can't be ticketed.

In the past Qantas has happily ticketed travel on surface transport.

Maybe the reason was more to do with the code for "Abu Dhabi Bus Station".

Called up and, eventually, was told the final destination was not valid so no ticket

Search for Location - Great Circle Mapper

Search for airport codes by location name

www.gcmap.com

 

[Quickstatus]

OP could make an argument that QF violated its contract

Thats between OP and QF - in front of social media or in front of some tribunal if QF does not come to party.
Someone in the social media was able to get full reimbursement from QF for a paid but non ticketed OWA - but post facto

I would make the argument that any reasonable traveller searching HAM to AUH on the QF website could not have foreseen that the option provided by QF was invalid

Ticketing errors occur rarely, but errors do occur. However

Indeed, there has been good case law

Unfortunately, even if true it is of no use before the intended itinerary. And of no use over the phone to some hapless QF customer agent in South Africa and certainly wont pass muster at checkin


Basically EU261 can only help post facto if there is a valid ticket

 

[Quickstatus]

Why is qantas.com delivering up flight combinations it cannot ticket?

Qantas has happily ticketed travel on surface transport.

IIRC there was a domestic flight which included sea/land transfers up in QLD? HTI or one of the islands?
VA?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thinking about this, I can't think of a reason this can't be ticketed.

In the past Qantas has happily ticketed travel on surface transport.

Maybe the reason was more to do with the code for "Abu Dhabi Bus Station".

Search for Location - Great Circle Mapper

Search for airport codes by location name

www.gcmap.com

Interesting question… has that been surface sectors overseas? Or ones in AU?

Given code shares are not usually available, the four digit EK7005 may have blocked ticketing.

 

[Princess Fiona]

IIRC there was a domestic flight which included sea/land transfers up in QLD? HTI or one of the islands?
VA?

I think the post infamous one was Tom Price to Paraburdoo or vv
It was on AFF well before my time I think.

 

[serfty]

Basically EU261 can only help post facto

In relation to compensation and duty of care this is generally true.

However, as indicated, with cancellations / variations to ticketed booking that come under EU261, EU261 obliges the carriers to rebook travel if the customer desires.

 

[serfty]

IIRC there was a domestic flight which included sea/land transfers up in QLD? HTI or one of the islands?
VA?

I think the post infamous one was Tom Price to Paraburdoo or vv
It was on AFF well before my time I think.

There have also been rail travel as well as boat travel (e.g. Launch between Shute harbour and Hamilton Island).

Hence my use of the term 'surface transport'.