AS Alaska to acquire HA Hawaiian

[justinbrett]

HA also currently codeshares with UA and DL. Those might end with joining oneworld under AS.

HA codeshare partners

• Air China
• American Airlines
• China Airlines
• Delta Air Lines
• Japan Airlines
• JetBlue
• Korean Air
• Philippine Airlines
• Turkish Airlines
• United Airlines
• Virgin Australia

Maybe a problem with the chinese carriers for CX, though CX might codeshare on HA in return.

Sure, but they're not frequent flyer partners. HA only has 5 - VA, VS, JL, B6 & KE.

It's kind of two different issues - I'd say the pressing one is the FF partners as that has to be uniform with AS after the merge; the codeshare partners can lag a bit - but expect they'll resemble AS current partners with a few tweaks/additions.

 

[Himeno]

I wonder if this will cause a change to the oneworld explorer fare rules.

Currently Hawaii is considered part of North America. If you go to Hawaii from SWP/Asia, you can't go back to SWP/Asia (as would be expected for the continent based rules and maintaining same direction of long haul flights), however, if you fly to Hawaii from the North American mainland, you can't go back and are forced to continue traveling to SWP/Asia.
Maybe a change to 1 flight to/1 flight from like the existing rule for Alaska?

 

[justinbrett]

I wonder if this will cause a change to the oneworld explorer fare rules.

Currently Hawaii is considered part of North America. If you go to Hawaii from SWP/Asia, you can't go back to SWP/Asia (as would be expected for the continent based rules and maintaining same direction of long haul flights), however, if you fly to Hawaii from the North American mainland, you can't go back and are forced to continue traveling east to SWP/Asia.
Maybe a change to 1 flight to/1 flight from like the existing rule for Alaska?

I'm also wondering about the oneworld membership veto - does that apply to affiliate airlines? I assume that is how HA will join, which will skip a lot of the red tape (otherwise 18 months is a very ambitious timeline to join in their own right).

Otherwise I wouldn't not be 100% sure any of the other airlines wouldn't try to veto (perhaps CX?). I also wonder if AA feels that the US is getting a bit crowded with oneworld airlines.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I saw the news earlier today and honestly think this is great news for competition in the US market. Right now there are just 4 major airlines in the U.S: Delta, United, American and Southwest. By merging, the combined Alaska-Hawaiian airline will make it 5 major airlines in the US. This is also good for competition on international routes since it expands OneWorld's presence in the US giving market leader United Airlines a run for its money (did you know United is by far the largest airline serving Australia from the US at the moment? Qantas and even QAAmerican can't even hold a candle up to them!)

The implications for this forum are several fold. First it means that flights to Hawaii and the Pacific for that matter will become more since Hawaiian will join OneWorld and so classic award flights are on the table there. It also means status credit accrual opportunities when flying to Hawaii (with potentially some lucrative runs depending on how Qantas irons out that earn table). Third it means that if you held orphaned points in Hawaiian (i.e. due AmEx Australia eliminating any reason to transfer to them) that you will likely be able to book OneWorld (i.e. Qantas) flights with said points.

What I do find interesting isn't the press release but rather the video. For me the video gives off serious hostage video vibes. But maybe its just me!

 

[SYD]

(did you know United is by far the largest airline serving Australia from the US at the moment? Qantas and even QAAmerican can't even hold a candle up to them!)

There’s a bit of smoke and mirrors there. Also depends on which months you’re holding a candle.

It also means status credit accrual opportunities when flying to Hawaii (with potentially some lucrative runs depending on how Qantas irons out that earn table).

Don’t hold your breath for changes to the SC earn table.

HA will just come in with a new FF earn table of eligible fares / class. The SC will be same as AS. You may need a decoder ring to work out precisely what they are - since the QF Calc isn’t AS friendly at the moment.

But new options to earn and burn are always welcome!

 

[justinbrett]

(did you know United is by far the largest airline serving Australia from the US at the moment? Qantas and even QAAmerican can't even hold a candle up to them!)

Strictly speaking the largest airline serving Australia from the US is American.

I assume you mean the airline with the most capacity between the US and Australia, and I don't know what basis you are saying UA "by far".

For one, oneworld has more services than *A (53 vs 52) and that is only during the NH winter. UA goes down to 42 in the NH summer (SYD-IAH & BNE-LAX are seasonal), QF is on 46 (51 inc JQ) and then add an extra 3 if you want to include YVR; the AA (in a JV with QF) is another 7.

 

[Mwenenzi]

I was just thinking, HA just moved from Sabre to Amadeus but AS uses Sabre - will they now switch back? That's gotta hurt.

From what I have read all will be on AS IT platform. So HA schedules/fares/seat maps will be uploaded into the AS system. The HA systems will die.
Unless AS decides to use Amadeus.

Current mix of aircraft/seats is ~82% AS & 18% HA, about 4:1 in AS favour.
HA has no (known) order for single aisle aircraft replacement orders. The 19 off B717 are getting towards end of life, B717 last produced in 2006

 

[Himeno]

I'm also wondering about the oneworld membership veto - does that apply to affiliate airlines? I assume that is how HA will join, which will skip a lot of the red tape (otherwise 18 months is a very ambitious timeline to join in their own right).

Otherwise I wouldn't not be 100% sure any of the other airlines wouldn't try to veto (perhaps CX?). I also wonder if AA feels that the US is getting a bit crowded with oneworld airlines.

When HP/US took over AA, US Air joined oneworld as an affiliate of AA until the rebranding of US into AA was completed.

 

[justinbrett]

From what I have read all will be on AS IT platform. So HA schedules/fares/seat maps will be uploaded into the AS system. The HA systems will die.
Unless AS decides to use Amadeus. Current mix of aircraft/seats is ~82% AS & 18% HA, about 4:1 in AS favour.

Yeah I heard the same, which is what I was getting at. All that effort & angst moving HA over to Amadeus was for nothing!

When HP/US took over AA, US Air joined oneworld as an affiliate of AA until the rebranding of US into AA was completed.

I guess the difference is that US was never going to be a permanent oneworld airline, they were just there until the merge was complete.

We're being told that HA will remain. But then again BA and IB are both full members.

 

[dajop]

Sure, but they're not frequent flyer partners. HA only has 5 - VA, VS, JL, B6 & KE.

So we can definitively say that KE & JL will stay and the other three are likely to no longer be partners. Not that AS doesn't live exclusively in the oneworld sphere, they have a good variety of non-OW partners, but they have form in ditching VA and VS when VX was absorbed.

 

[elanshin]

I guess the difference is that US was never going to be a permanent oneworld airline, they were just there until the merge was complete.

We're being told that HA will remain. But then again BA and IB are both full members.

While I know its different alliances, it could end up like a situation with MU and FM on skyteam. For all intents and purposes FM is MU for skyteam alliance benefits. HA could be treated as AS once the merge is complete and doesn't really matter what the "badge" on the plane / ticket says.

 

[Himeno]

Current mix of aircraft/seats is ~82% AS & 18% HA, about 4:1 in AS favour.
HA has no (known) order for single aisle aircraft replacement orders. The 19 off B717 are getting towards end of life, B717 last produced in 2006

When the all Boeing AS took over the all Airbus VX, they phased out the airbus aircraft (with the last A320s leaving earlier this year).
Even if they keep the brands separate, would they repeat the removal of airbus types with HA?
Replace the HA A330s with 787s (which seems to be the HA plan anyway), phase out the HA A321neos for more 737 MAX.
A220s to replace 717s, as other airlines have done, would seem to be out of the question for seemingly anti airbus AS. Maybe more EMBs that AS has for regional flights?

 

[justinbrett]

A220s to replace 717s, as other airlines have done, would seem to be out of the question for seemingly anti airbus AS. Maybe more EMBs that AS has for regional flights?

737-7s would do the trick, HA have 128 seats on their 717s, so would be a modest increase. There's no operational requirement to have a regional jet on the HA routes, all of the runways are at least 6000 FT. AS services far more regional routes with 737s than these.

I'd be surprised if the US mainline flights don't get rebadged to AS flights within a few years.

The real question - when are they going to upgrade HNL? At least the HA terminal (T1) is a lot nicer than T2.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Strictly speaking the largest airline serving Australia from the US is American.

I assume you mean the airline with the most capacity between the US and Australia, and I don't know what basis you are saying UA "by far".

ViewFromTheWing provides analysis on this "development". United operates 462 flights per month between the US and Australia versus Qantas' meagre 316.

For one, oneworld has more services than *A (53 vs 52) and that is only during the NH winter.

If we count alliances, between the US and Australia, Star Alliance is still on top with 462 for United versus 378 for OneWorld (AA and QF).

UA goes down to 42 in the NH summer (SYD-IAH & BNE-LAX are seasonal), QF is on 46 (51 inc JQ) and then add an extra 3 if you want to include YVR; the AA (in a JV with QF) is another 7.

I don't think United will drop from 462 flights per month to Australia down to 42. If you are referring to on a weekly basis how many flights United operates, I doubt it'll doubt to 42 either since that would mean going from 462 flights per month down to 168 which would represent a huge drop.

When the all Boeing AS took over the all Airbus VX, they phased out the airbus aircraft (with the last A320s leaving earlier this year).
Even if they keep the brands separate, would they repeat the removal of airbus types with HA?
Replace the HA A330s with 787s (which seems to be the HA plan anyway), phase out the HA A321neos for more 737 MAX.

I could totally see Alaskan replacing the A330s with 737s to keep the fleet harmonized. Just offer a Hawaiian hopper service to SYD and TYO.

A220s to replace 717s, as other airlines have done, would seem to be out of the question for seemingly anti airbus AS. Maybe more EMBs that AS has for regional flights?

Technically Bombardier C Series which again is something Boeing is lacking (small jets). Perhaps they can replace it with Dash-8 puddle jumpers.

 

[Himeno]

I also wonder if AA feels that the US is getting a bit crowded with oneworld airlines.

I doubt it. HA has less overlap with AA then AS did when they joined and AA was the AS sponsor into the alliance.
It took 8 months between announcement to joining for AS, although the entire process was in 2020/21, so maybe the downturn in travel during the pandemic helped speed it along.

 

[justinbrett]

ViewFromTheWing provides analysis on this "development". United operates 462 flights per month between the US and Australia versus Qantas' meagre 316.

If we count alliances, between the US and Australia, Star Alliance is still on top with 462 for United versus 378 for OneWorld (AA and QF).

I don't think United will drop from 462 flights per month to Australia down to 42. If you are referring to on a weekly basis how many flights United operates, I doubt it'll doubt to 42 either since that would mean going from 462 flights per month down to 168 which would represent a huge drop.

I could totally see Alaskan replacing the A330s with 737s to keep the fleet harmonized. Just offer a Hawaiian hopper service to SYD and TYO.

Technically Bombardier C Series which again is something Boeing is lacking (small jets). Perhaps they can replace it with Dash-8 puddle jumpers.

They've excluded SYD-HNL and SYD-JFK in those numbers

My stats were return weekly flights, your stats are daily oneway flights. So divide your numbers by 62 and multiply by 7.

UA will lose 10 weekly flights (SYD-IAH daily and BNE-LAX 3x weekly) come summer, flying 372 by your units. Also should point out the NH summer schedule is 7 months, the winter schedule is only 5 months.

 

[DC3]

Looks like our AFFers have it all worked out.

Edit: Oh, I just realised that there’s nothing from Poochie, yet.

 

[http_x92]

Tbh it is funny seeing the reaction to this on the US blogs and FT being so different compared to here lol, Oneworld flyers like it though no doubt.

 

[jakeseven7]

Looks like our AFFers have it all worked out.

Edit: Oh, I just realised that there’s nothing from Poochie, yet.

Poochie is busy in the more important ‘passengers barefeet poking through VA2 business class seat’ debacle

 

[elanshin]

I wonder if they will rebadge a couple of HA widebodies planes as AS and fly TYO > SEA or AUS > SEA direct to connect with their network.