Ask The Pilot

[markis10]

Whilst it is a requirement, the outcomes vary enormously. Heck, I have trouble understanding the Americans at times. Koreans in particular can be very hard to understand. I expect it has more to do with accent than the actual words used. We regularly hear conversations go amuck between ATC and aircraft. Whilst both halves of the conversation are ostensibly speaking English, the outcomes are often very confusing, when English is the native tongue of neither.

Good point, and then there is Aviation English versus everyday English, I do remember having a conversation with Air China about DME, they thought I was talking about a ruler?

 

[ChrisGibbs]

The way it was explained to me by an RJ exec who was sitting next to me on one of the flights was that most RJ pilots native language is Arabic. All speak a "basic" level of English to cover off ATC requirements. Some also speak French, German, Italian and Spanish. Depending on the particular Pilot their level of conversational English to explain delays, etc is sometimes a challenge. If this is the case a member of the Cabin Crew may translate the Arabic PA from the Tech Crew into English and possibly French depending on the mix of passengers.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

JB747 - over the last few years I've been spending a bunch of time flying out of HKG into Chinese cities like Chengdu, Nanjing, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Recently I've noticed there appears to be a transition point after leaving Hong Kong where assigned altitudes move from an assigned flight level in feet (i.e. FL350 or 10,650m) to an assigned flight level which is metric (i.e. 10,700m or FL351). What is the reason behind this and are metric flight levels utilised in other airspace? Are there any specific require for the aircraft and/or tech crew to fly in this airspace? Does this create any confusion when transitioning from non-metric airspace to metric airspace?

Thanks in advance.

 

[stewiejp]

Very good point re English speaking ability of pilots. I remember my Dad (ATC now retired) coming home from work when I was a kid telling stories of the "interesting" conversations he had with some pilots, and some of their English ability was very limited, almost dangerously so. Whilst he seemed to handle the stressful job of an ATC well, he was simply good at it and made a good career of it, he was never the most patient of men.

 

[jb747]

JB747 - over the last few years I've been spending a bunch of time flying out of HKG into Chinese cities like Chengdu, Nanjing, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. Recently I've noticed there appears to be a transition point after leaving Hong Kong where assigned altitudes move from an assigned flight level in feet (i.e. FL350 or 10,650m) to an assigned flight level which is metric (i.e. 10,700m or FL351). What is the reason behind this and are metric flight levels utilised in other airspace? Are there any specific require for the aircraft and/or tech crew to fly in this airspace? Does this create any confusion when transitioning from non-metric airspace to metric airspace?

There are a number of altitude standards in use around the world.

The most common until recently was generally described as ICAO standard levels. That divided aircraft up by track, using 360º to 179º for easterly, and 180º to 359º for westerly tracks. The westerly set were called ICAO even (even though you'll see they aren't) and the easterly tracks ICAO odd.

ICAO even levels are F200, F220, F240, F260, F280, F310, F350, F390, F430.

ICAO odd levels are F210, F230, F250, F270, F290, F330, F370, F410. There are lower levels too, but not relevant to the discussion.

As you can see, that kept aircraft in opposite directions 1,000 feet apart up to F290, when it switched to 2,000 feet separation. This was all well and good, but as aircraft systems became more accurate, and the skies more crowded, it became necessary to better utilise that space between levels. So, RVSM, reduced vertical separation, was introduced. That basically had the effect of separating all levels by 1,000 feet. And, making things a little more sensible, RVSM even, is still the westerly tracks, but now the level are all actually evens.

I think the reason the old English 'feet' are still used is because 1,000 feet happens to be both a nice separation, and also an easy number to work with.

But, in China and the USSR (and perhaps other places that I don't go) metric altitudes were in use. They had their own version of EVENS/ODDs, with 600m between aircraft on opposite tracks. When RVSM was introduced, that came down to 300m.

On flights from Oz to London, until about a year ago, at various times, we'd fly in ICAO, RVSM and metric RVSM airspace. Countries that were previously part of the USSR, switched to RVSM about a year ago, and most airspace is now using RVSM. I don't know whether Russia switched...haven't been there lately.

China still uses the metric altitudes, so any time you transit from one system to another, there has to be an adjustment area where ATC instruct aircraft to climb or descend to their new level. Leaving HK, HK ATC will hand you over to China at the correct level, whilst in the other direction Chinese ATC make the adjustment. Is there potential for it to go wrong...you bet there is.

So how do we fly these altitudes? Well, we have the ability to select a metric altitude display, but it's only a small addition to the normal displays. The MCP and everything else remains in feet. We have to convert cleared metric altitudes to feet (using a conversion chart), and we then set and fly the altitudes in feet. When there, the metric display should be close to the desired number, but it won't be exactly correct.

 

[RooFlyer]

Strewth. I kinda wish ChrisGibbs hadn't asked the question

 

[petercr]

I can understand American-made planes not being able to grasp the metric system but I would have thought it was second nature to European-made planes...
Actually, just to confuse things slightly more...
JB, you mention in your post flight levels F200, F220, F240, F260, F280, F310, F350, F390, F430 - some of these aren't even #'s, do they keep some levels clear for other reasons (eg F360, F380, F40 are missing)
Or maybe it's just the Aspie in me kicking in...

 

[jb747]

I can understand American-made planes not being able to grasp the metric system but I would have thought it was second nature to European-made planes...
Actually, just to confuse things slightly more...
JB, you mention in your post flight levels F200, F220, F240, F260, F280, F310, F350, F390, F430 - some of these aren't even #'s, do they keep some levels clear for other reasons (eg F360, F380, F40 are missing)

As I said...the ICAO evens aren't necessarily even.

Basically the accuracy of the aircraft altimetry has been improving over the years, so eventually the decision was made to make use of that to allow the spacing to be reduced. Nowadays, something like an A380 is within feet of where it should be. I've seen other aircraft that were laterally miles from where they thought they were...so it isn't hard to believe that they weren't vertically all that accurate either.

RVSM comes with it's own limitations too. No manual flying. You must have multiple air data computers operating. Even dents in the fuselage have to be accounted for by the engineers.

 

[Major]

During the flight how is meteorological data sent to the aircraft ? Do you have to request info or is it sent automatically ?

Apart from radar and wind data what other weather instruments are available to you ?

 

[Must...Fly!]

If jb's schedule is unaltered he should have just taken off from DXB operating QF2 . Happy flying!

How goes the DXB-LHR-DXB ops jb747? I recall a talk about doing the flight with just the Captain and FO - is that how it is working in practice or are you still with the SO on this sector?

Also something that I was wondering after watching the A350 first flight last week...on the flight deck, do you have to have the full safety belt done up at all times (i.e. shoulder restraint etc) or is there just a lap belt you can secure yourself with for the cruise?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

jb... thanks for your views on the royal Jordanian flight. I suspect the captain may have been busy trying to fly rather than making announcements?

while reading the author's story I couldn't help but thinking the RJ plane couldn't have then the only one up there?

would there come a time when ATC would tell all planes to divert if all of them reported they were flying around in the middle of the storm cell?

 

[Hvr]

The first episode is due to air in the UK on 17 June. "Dallas finds out more about the A380, the world’s largest passenger jet."
Airport Live TV Show BBC TWO | Airport Live Online Series Summary

I'm sure we'll get some early reports on the quality of the actual program.

I have just watched the first episode of another UK program 'Terror in the Skies' and at the 16 minute mark there is an interview with RdC about QF32 along with footage from the flight and afterwards.

Have just watched the first episode of Airport live and no jb, maybe tomorrow night.

Here's the BBC link to the show.

BBC Two - Airport Live

 

[petercr]

Heard one of JB's colleagues on 612 ABC yesterday afternoon talking about the 'mayday' indicident at Mildura yesterday and how the amount of fuel they carry isn't necessarily a set figure but at the discrection of the captain (as JB has mentioned in previous posts)

 

[legroom]

Apologies if this was covered (buried) somewhere in this terrific thread.

JB, how many hours before departure (long vs short haul) would pilots be required to turn up at the airport ?

It occurs to me some flights are scheduled to depart (say SYD DXB) @ 0600 (OMG hrs).

I had taken a SYD BNE at 0600 once, too.

Would those pre-flight hours be counted towards the total before a shift change mid-flight ?

Many thanks

 

[simongr]

Have just watched the first episode of Airport live and no jb, maybe tomorrow night.

Here's the BBC link to the show.

BBC Two - Airport Live

And I hear it is available on other sources.

 

[jb747]

During the flight how is meteorological data sent to the aircraft ? Do you have to request info or is it sent automatically ?

You can listen to it on the HF radio volmets. Terminal weather is on VHF ATIS. And we can request it via the ACARS.

Apart from radar and wind data what other weather instruments are available to you ?

The window works well...

 

[jb747]

If jb's schedule is unaltered he should have just taken off from DXB operating QF2 . Happy flying!

How goes the DXB-LHR-DXB ops jb747? I recall a talk about doing the flight with just the Captain and FO - is that how it is working in practice or are you still with the SO on this sector?

Also something that I was wondering after watching the A350 first flight last week...on the flight deck, do you have to have the full safety belt done up at all times (i.e. shoulder restraint etc) or is there just a lap belt you can secure yourself with for the cruise?

That flight went off pretty much as planned. We were delayed at the gate for a while by some sort of ATC issue, but arrived in Sydney pretty much on time.

I've had no issue doing the sector 2 man, but the company is keeping a close eye on the weather at both ends, and popping an SO on if they think he'll be needed.

 

[jb747]

while reading the author's story I couldn't help but thinking the RJ plane couldn't have then the only one up there?

would there come a time when ATC would tell all planes to divert if all of them reported they were flying around in the middle of the storm cell?

There were probably quote a bunch, but they didn't have an expert on board.

It's not really up to ATC. You know the weather. You know how much fuel you have. I'll bet this whole thing was just a pretty normal day during the typhoon season.

 

[jb747]

Heard one of JB's colleagues on 612 ABC yesterday afternoon talking about the 'mayday' indicident at Mildura yesterday and how the amount of fuel they carry isn't necessarily a set figure but at the discrection of the captain (as JB has mentioned in previous posts)

What incident?

 

[jb747]

Apologies if this was covered (buried) somewhere in this terrific thread.

JB, how many hours before departure (long vs short haul) would pilots be required to turn up at the airport ?

It occurs to me some flights are scheduled to depart (say SYD DXB) @ 0600 (OMG hrs).

I had taken a SYD BNE at 0600 once, too.

Would those pre-flight hours be counted towards the total before a shift change mid-flight ?

We get there an hour before. It counts towards your duty period (it's work...if you don't do it the jet won't go).

What shift change????