United Airlines Denied Boarding

[TiredOldFlyer]

Early this month we were confirmed on a return flight from LAX to Aspen.
Our departing flight from LA was delayed several times due to bad weather at Aspen.
After some hours of confusion at LAX we were loaded on a flight that went to Grand Junction and then
bused to Aspen - a two hour drive.
On checking in on line some 14 days later for our return trip to LAX from Aspen we were not confirmed. I rang United call centre
to be told that our ticket had been cancelled as we had not taken the first leg (LAX to Aspen) and the flight was full there was no
chance of a flight to LAX untill later that day - more than 4 hours after our planned departure. Due to the weather conditions at the time
and the possibility od a closure of Aspen Airport we decieded not to accept this flight and made our own way to Denver and to ticket
on from there. United refunded the Aspen LAX one way and we then paid for the Denver to LAX ticket.
On arriving home I checked the rules for denied boarding, changed and updated from January this year. They clearly state that we were
entitlied to compensation for denied boarding and further more that this should have been attended to same day together with advice as
to our rights. This United failed to do.
I have of course now written to United "Customer Care "and explained the situation. Customer Care do not speak to people and the only contact
avaliable is by email or letter.
The call center advised that could take up to 8 weeks to receive an answer.
I wonder about the "Care" of the customer Care Department !

I am not holding my breath as a claim last year for lost luggage - twice in 48 hours - took some 12 months to complete.

I would welcome comment or advice from anybody who has had a similar experience.

 

[NM]

I somehow expect that UA will not see this as a case of "denied boarding", but a case of incorrect cancellation of the ticket. I doubt any "denied boarding" compensation will apply. But they may offer some compensation for incorrect ticket cancellation.

You cannot be "denied boarding" for a flight for which you do not hold a confirmed ticket. While you did originally hold a confirmed ticket, by the date of the actual flight you did not hold a confirmed ticket. Hence could not check-in for the flight and hence its not a case of denied boarding but incorrect cancellation of the ticket that you should be pursuing with the airline. Using the term "denied boarding" is only going to confuse the issue. While it may sound emotive, I don't think its going to help your cause in addressing the issue at hand, which is what UA is going to do about incorrectly cancelling your original return ticket and compensating for the additional costs you inured as a result of their mistake.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

Good point Nelly - (I am sure that United will use any excuse !) will follow up and try to establish what the TSA means about "Denied Boarding"

 

[TheInsider]

Denied Boarding occurs, but this is not one of the cases. Denied boarding happens due to oversales of flights or a passenger not getting on due to operational requirements. This above situation is neither.

 

[NM]

Good point Nelly - (I am sure that United will use any excuse !) will follow up and try to establish what the TSA means about "Denied Boarding"

TSA?? What does the TSA have to do with this? Its between you and United Airlines, and its all about establishing why your return flight was incorrectly cancelled. You cannot be "denied boarding" for a flight for which you do not hold a confirmed reservation, and your reservation was cancelled (apparently incorrectly).

Cancelling subsequent sectors is a normal procedure when a passenger is a no-show for an earlier sector. This does sometimes happen (incorrectly) when re-routing due to irregular operations. While cancellation of subsequent sectors following involuntary re-routing is not the correct procedure, the computer systems do sometimes make this mistake, possibly because the service agent making the re-routing change did not process the change correctly. This is what you need to discuss with UA and ask them about compensation for your costs involved in making your return journey.

 

[burmans]

I somehow expect that UA will not see this as a case of "denied boarding", but a case of incorrect cancellation of the ticket. I doubt any "denied boarding" compensation will apply. But they may offer some compensation for incorrect ticket cancellation.

You cannot be "denied boarding" for a flight for which you do not hold a confirmed ticket. While you did originally hold a confirmed ticket, by the date of the actual flight you did not hold a confirmed ticket. Hence could not check-in for the flight and hence its not a case of denied boarding but incorrect cancellation of the ticket that you should be pursuing with the airline. Using the term "denied boarding" is only going to confuse the issue. While it may sound emotive, I don't think its going to help your cause in addressing the issue at hand, which is what UA is going to do about incorrectly cancelling your original return ticket and compensating for the additional costs you inured as a result of their mistake.

I think that you are correct in the description of how UA will regard this, I'm not so sure anyone else including a court would agree. OP had a confirmed ticket, and rocked up for a flight expecting to board and were denied. You are correct that root cause was the fact they incorrected cancelled but the net effect was to deny boarding.

Seems UA make a habit of this too, I had exactly the same happen to me. I was on a US Air award booking and UA cancelled my flight ICN-SFO, they put me on the next days flight ICN-SFO (and onto EWR). The day before I was due to go back I got online to checkin (UA and AC) and discovered my return was cancelled. First person I rang wanted me to pay $150 per ticket for myself and wife to re-instate becuase "you cancelled the ticket" and talking sense to her did not work. HUACA. Fortunately the next was an intelligent human being and solved this, including making sure my AC flights were not caneclled.

If this is a consistent and/or common error I think you can actually make a case they are denying boarding given there is a clear cause and effect here.

 

[NM]

I think that you are correct in the description of how UA will regard this, I'm not so sure anyone else including a court would agree. OP had a confirmed ticket, and rocked up for a flight expecting to board and were denied. You are correct that root cause was the fact they incorrected cancelled but the net effect was to deny boarding.

Actually, the OP did not have a confirmed ticket at the time they rocked up for the flight. They had a cancelled ticket. They were not aware their ticket was cancelled, but at the time they tried to check-in, they did not have a confirmed ticket - it was cancelled previously without their knowledge.

Seems UA make a habit of this too, I had exactly the same happen to me. I was on a US Air award booking and UA cancelled my flight ICN-SFO, they put me on the next days flight ICN-SFO (and onto EWR). The day before I was due to go back I got online to checkin (UA and AC) and discovered my return was cancelled. First person I rang wanted me to pay $150 per ticket for myself and wife to re-instate becuase "you cancelled the ticket" and talking sense to her did not work. HUACA. Fortunately the next was an intelligent human being and solved this, including making sure my AC flights were not caneclled.

Yes, it is not uncommon. Shows the importance of checking your itinerary status after any Irregular Operations changes. While you should not need to check, it is wise practice to do so and here are two more examples of why it is good practice to check.

If this is a consistent and/or common error I think you can actually make a case they are denying boarding given there is a clear cause and effect here.

I think it may show a systemic problem that results in incorrect cancellation of tickets following Irregular Operations. It still does not become "denied boarding" which, as TheInsider points out has certain criteria to be defined as such and hence trigger government requirements for compensation.

 

[dk4]

Seems UA make a habit of this too...

Not just United, I've had it happen to me on a few occasions with AA.

It really is a PIA, but worth a note for those who are reading - if you are travelling in the States and you experience a reroute at the airport/gate, ensure the agent has removed the original sector from the booking (i.e. the one which you won't be travelling). If it hasn't been removed and remains as confirmed, it will default to "no show" when you don't travel, and the rest of your ticket will be cancelled.

It's also worth double checking once you get off your rerouted sector, with a different agent at the arrival airport or over the phone.

This type of problem is most likely to happen due to irregular operations, and most likely due to weather: this is a time when agents are put under a lot of stress and mistakes are likely. It is also a time when you don't want mistakes to happen, as there will be many other displaced travellers vying for seats, and if your seats are put back into the system, they are likely to get grabbed up by someone else fairly quickly.

 

[burmans]

Actually, the OP did not have a confirmed ticket at the time they rocked up for the flight. They had a cancelled ticket. They were not aware their ticket was cancelled, but at the time they tried to check-in, they did not have a confirmed ticket - it was cancelled previously without their knowledge.

Yes, it is not uncommon. Shows the importance of checking your itinerary status after any Irregular Operations changes. While you should not need to check, it is wise practice to do so and here are two more examples of why it is good practice to check.

I think it may show a systemic problem that results in incorrect cancellation of tickets following Irregular Operations. It still does not become "denied boarding" which, as TheInsider points out has certain criteria to be defined as such and hence trigger government requirements for compensation.

Not so sure we are disagreeing here, I agree that this was caused by the ticket being cancelled without notice, but that's my point, if they have a systemic issue which causes travellers to be denied travel when at the last point in time that the customer looked it was a valid booking, the net effect is exactly the same as denying boarding. I don't believe a court would regard internal incompetency as a valid excuse for not providing a service (without notice). And yes it is good practice to check but once again I think a court would agree that if you hold a confirmed ticket you shouldn't need to keep checking its still confirmed.

I just think the "reasons" the airlines give for this behaviour is not actually defensible yet we keep letting them get away with it.

 

[eastwest101]

Not just United, I've had it happen to me on a few occasions with AA.

It really is a PIA, but worth a note for those who are reading - if you are travelling in the States and you experience a reroute at the airport/gate, ensure the agent has removed the original sector from the booking (i.e. the one which you won't be travelling). If it hasn't been removed and remains as confirmed, it will default to "no show" when you don't travel, and the rest of your ticket will be cancelled.

It's also worth double checking once you get off your rerouted sector, with a different agent at the arrival airport or over the phone.

This type of problem is most likely to happen due to irregular operations, and most likely due to weather: this is a time when agents are put under a lot of stress and mistakes are likely. It is also a time when you don't want mistakes to happen, as there will be many other displaced travellers vying for seats, and if your seats are put back into the system, they are likely to get grabbed up by someone else fairly quickly.

This is all really good advice, thanks. But is it just me or isn't it the job of the airline to update their booking systems properly and accurrately? Not the job of the passengers to second guess how the airline can screw up their own procedures?

Anyway - all good advice and I hope the OP comes back with a suitable explanation from UA as to why their flight was incorrectly cancelled, in breach of UA own procedures and also without consultation or authorization. After all - if UA don't realize that they have these problems than they can't do anything to address them.

Of course the cynic in me would conclude that UA or indeed any other airline is not really interested in reported breakdown of their procedures and systems until it is brought to their attention by a sizeable amount of compensation $$ to the affected passengers, then when that bill arrives or is brought to the attention of management then they are all of a sudden very very interested....

 

[docjames]

The issue you have is an incorrectly cancelled ticket.

"Denied Boarding" as others have mention does not apply - you need to have a valid ticket to be denied boarding. The issue is that UA made your ticket invalid after the original booking switch.

You got the sector refunded from UA and made (an admittedly inferior) arrangement - what are you seeking from UA now? What extra costs did you incur?

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

TSA?? What does the TSA have to do with this? Its between you and United Airlines, and its all about establishing why your return flight was incorrectly cancelled. You cannot be "denied boarding" for a flight for which you do not hold a confirmed reservation, and your reservation was cancelled (apparently incorrectly).

Cancelling subsequent sectors is a normal procedure when a passenger is a no-show for an earlier sector. This does sometimes happen (incorrectly) when re-routing due to irregular operations. While cancellation of subsequent sectors following involuntary re-routing is not the correct procedure, the computer systems do sometimes make this mistake, possibly because the service agent making the re-routing change did not process the change correctly. This is what you need to discuss with UA and ask them about compensation for your costs involved in making your return journey.

The TSA has recently updated passenger rights - came into effect from January this year, and I quote from the TSA regulations :
"Reservations:
Once you have a confirmed reservation, you are confirmed on the flight even if there is no record of your reservation in the airline's computer system. If you have a ticket or print-out that shows a confirmed reservation for a specific flight and date, an agent cannot deny you boarding because you have no reservation in the computer. However, if you don't show up for a flight and fail to cancel the reservation, you are considered a no-show and the airline can cancel any continuing or return reservations."

Yes I had ticket with or print out with a confirmed reservation, and yes United cancelled the ticket on the grounds that we did not take the first leg - incorrectly.
And yes the Agent denied boarding ! ( see above ) ergo denied boarding compensation applies. (May be )
However I do understand that this is a minefield. There appears to not be a definition for denied boarding although it is generally used for oversold flights.
Thanks for the input so far but I will press on.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

The issue you have is an incorrectly cancelled ticket.

"Denied Boarding" as others have mention does not apply - you need to have a valid ticket to be denied boarding. The issue is that UA made your ticket invalid after the original booking switch.

You got the sector refunded from UA and made (an admittedly inferior) arrangement - what are you seeking from UA now? What extra costs did you incur?

Doc it appears to me that the flight was oversold - the fact that the computer did not recognise some sales is not a "get out" avaliable to United under their conditions of carriage and the TSA rules (see quote above)

The TSA rules are structured to provide compensation to passengers and is partly a penalty on the airlines to control over selling and other practices carried out to the
detriment of passengers, therefor I seek the compensation that is allowed !

 

[docjames]

Doc it appears to me that the flight was oversold - the fact that the computer did not recognise some sales is not a "get out" avaliable to United under their conditions of carriage and the TSA rules (see quote above)

The TSA rules are structured to provide compensation to passengers and is partly a penalty on the airlines to control over selling and other practices carried out to the
detriment of passengers, therefor I seek the compensation that is allowed !

I dont think they've done it as a true oversold (ie sold 150 seats, plane only carries 135) - they have cancelled your ticket in line with usual practice where a reservation lapses without correct variation (ie. cancel remaining segments). And then by the time you went to check in (and discovered the error), the flight was full.

I still think you would be better attacking from that angle (ie. UA cancelled this inappropriately and caused me delay / travel variation) however it always helps to have a "settlement request" ie. what do you want from UA?

Amount of Denied Boarding Compensation

Domestic Transportation
Passengers traveling between points within the United States (including the territories and possessions) who are denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight are entitled to: (1) no compensation if the carrier offers alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the passenger’s destination or first stopover not later than one hour after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight; (2) 200% of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $650, if the carrier offers alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the passenger’s destination or first stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight; and (3) 400% of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $1,300, if the carrier does not offer alternate transportation that is planned to arrive at the airport of the passenger’s destination or first stopover less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight.

0 to 1 hour arrival delay	No compensation
1 to 2 hour arrival delay	200% of one-way fare (but no more than $650)
Over 2 hours arrival delay	400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,300)

How much later did you get to LAX?
Did you make your original flight home (as it could be argued if they made an alternative and you made your "final destination" they may not be liable for any compensation).

Hence why I feel you may be better seeking a (small but fair) compensation for inconvenience of having to get to Denver, and also as it was their error that forced this situation. Whereas IDB may not be the best attack. Which again leads me to: what do you want from UA?



Of course, there's always the option of striking it down in the "$h1t happens" when travelling column....

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

What is fair ?
My complaint to United was a "soft" complaint simply explaining the circumstances and requesting compensation by way of travel vouchers for a return
ticket LAX to Aspen for each of us. Much less than the denied boarding compensation you have detailed above.
We arrived in LA 8 hours after our previously booked time.

I expect a negative reply from United and to end up in the $hit happens dept, but I am old enough and cranky enough not to go easily.:evil:

 

[docjames]

Best of luck - please let us know how you get on.

Detailing your requested "settlement" gives the airline a solution or at least a starting point. Doesn't always work but anecdotally seems to have a better success rate at getting some form of compensation.

 

[burmans]

As an idea I got 17500 UA points per person for my 1 day delayed flight and 1 voucher for $US150 for the fact the SFO to EWR flight was now in Y. The voucher is next to useless, I'd be asking for points!

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

My reply from United :

Dear Mr. *******:

Thank you for contacting United Airlines.

I am sorry for the problems you experienced during your travel. Denied
Boarding Compensation applies only when a passenger traveling
domestically with a confirmed reservation and ticket arrives at the gate
at least 20 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time and is denied
boarding.

In your situation, your flights on January 28 from Los Angeles to Aspen
were cancelled due to extreme weather. You were protected on flight
5554 to Aspen the following day, January 29. As the outbound leg of the
flight was not flown, the reservation automatically cancels. While I
understand your disappointment, your situation does not qualify for
denied boarding compensation.

Mr. Roddick, thank you for this opportunity to respond to your concerns.
We appreciate your business and look forward to seeing you on board a
United Airlines flight soon.


Regards,

xx_xx_ xx_xx
Corporate Customer Care


What Next ?

 

[docjames]

What Next ?

If it was me, I'd give up.

What are you planning?

I think the IDB confuses the situation and you need to ask specifically for compensation for "inconvenience".

Having said that, i think by this point you're unlikely to get far but if you have the time and inclination, I'd be pursuing "inconvenience caused by your flights being cancelled forcing you to drive a distance to make your international flight connection" and being specific about what you want (miles, a $$ amount representative of the actual costs (? car hire / bus fares etc) and/or time cost as well.

 

[eastwest101]

My reply from United :

Dear Mr. ....:

Thank you for contacting United Airlines.

I am sorry for the problems you experienced during your travel. Denied
Boarding Compensation applies only when a passenger traveling
domestically with a confirmed reservation and ticket arrives at the gate
at least 20 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time and is denied
boarding.

In your situation, your flights on January 28 from Los Angeles to Aspen
were cancelled due to extreme weather. You were protected on flight
5554 to Aspen the following day, January 29. As the outbound leg of the
flight was not flown, the reservation automatically cancels. While I
understand your disappointment, your situation does not qualify for
denied boarding compensation.

Mr. Roddick, thank you for this opportunity to respond to your concerns.
We appreciate your business and look forward to seeing you on board a
United Airlines flight soon.


Regards,

xx_xx_ xx_xx
Corporate Customer Care

What Next ?

Not surprising response, as I read it UA fufilled their part of the contract by getting you to Aspen eventually (24 hours late though). I assume it was UA's obligation to fly you to Grand Junction and then bus you to Aspen - i.e. UA paid for this and got you there to the best of their ability given the weather. They are trying to argue that, strictly speaking, you did not fly on the original scheduled LAX-Aspen flight so therefore they may cancel all your further bookings as their computer system treated you as a "no show". I can see how they are trying to wiggle out of it but they UA were under an obligation to transport you to Aspen - which they fulfilled (but 24 hours late) once off the bus in Aspen you were at your destination and hence UA still had an obligation to transport you from Aspen back to LAX on the date of your original booking. Either while you were on the bus or maybe the day after while you were ski-ing, the UA reservation system was erroneously altered saying that you did not check in at LAX.

If you have the boarding passes for your LAX-Grand Junction flight, bus tickets from Grand Junction to Aspen and/or photos of such you need to prove you made it to Aspen somehow (albeit 24 hours late). Maybe ask them what efforts UA made to contact you while in Aspen, they will not be able to prove this as I suspect they did not try.

Just so its clear in my own mind - is this what happened next - Then once you were on the phone to UA and found out your Aspen-LAX flight had been cancelled they offered you a flight 4 hours later (that presumably would not suit you due to connections). So you declined this and chose to go to Denver under your own steam, fair enough given weather and frequency of flights. Once at the airport in Denver at the UA desk you were able to be refunded your "cancelled" Aspen to LAX leg, how is this possible? And this credit, presumably, this was used as part credit to help you pay for the Denver-LAX flights to get you back to LAX? I would assume the fare rules of the original LAX-Aspen-LAX flights allowed refunds? Might be worth a look at the fare classes and refund policy of the original flight booking. Anyway UA definately did give you a refund so therefore you cannot be a "no show" and then get a refund unless they have very strange fare rules, that is, they can't have it both ways......

Anyway - complaining about arriving in Aspen may not yeild much joy as UA will be able to wiggle out of it due to the weather - fair enough in my opinion. But I am still really interested in when exactly the reservation was "automatically cancelled". Its definately a UA booking system screw up and you should be able to get some sort of compensation out of them somehow, but you may have to refer to UA's own T&C's to throw back at them.....

I would be really interested in what others suggest about other way to approach the problem. :shock: