Qantas reciprocal relationship with KLM/Air France (2020 onwards)

[Danger]

Does one need to call QF to book redemptions on KLM? I’ve checked expertflyer and seats are showing, but the QF site doesn’t give KLM as an option, or it could be phantom?

It could also be that KLM hasn't released seats to QF.

 

[ChrisMars]

It could also be that KLM hasn't released seats to QF.

Yea I tested that once. 9+ award seats (not the elite award) no seats on qantas website, and no luck calling qantas. Pretty sure it was hobart on the line. Would love to be proven wrong, and access AF/KLM seats even when not on Qantas website.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I was searching online last night for a OWA next year, there was quite a bit of availability coming up on Air France and KLM TATL, which of course can’t be used But it was showing on line. I have also seen SIN-AMS on KLM, and of course lots of intra-Europe (but the carrier charges on the latter mean it’s cheaper to buy revenue tickets in most cases).

 

[Danger]

Last month, while trying to flee Europe as COVID-19 was escalating quicker than alcohol orders at an AFF lounge meet, I went about trying to get answers as to the reciprocal benefits. I made three separate calls to QFF on the same day, asking about benefits when travelling as a Platinum in revenue Y. All were answered by the Asian call centre.

Agent 1 told me I would have lounge access in Paris but only when travelling on QF flight number. Points and SCs are earned on an AF flight number.

Agent 2 told me I "definitely have lounge access". I would also have priority seating and baggage. I then asked specifically what the baggage allowance was for a non-Americas flight. The agent asked me the specific route. I said Geneva to Casablanca. He said I would have an additional 50kg on any Y ticket. I confirmed this, twice. 50kgs extra on any Y ticket – regardless of the fare bucket, which would make the baggage allowance more generous than what Qantas provides to its own elites on its own metal. I then asked if there is any lounge access? “Yes, definitely.” I confirmed: “So if Air France has a lounge at GVA, I would be able to access it travelling in Y, provided I present my QF card, is that correct?” It was a clear “Yes”.

Agent 3 began by listing the same five benefits that are outlined on the QF website for travel on AF. I specifically asked what the extra baggage allowance is. She looked and said 50kg total (not extra). I confirmed that this was in any class on any ticket, including deep discount Y. She said it was. I then asked if I had lounge access. She said it would depend where. I said Paris CDG and GVA. She said at CDG I could access the AA lounge and the CX lounge and in GVA the BA lounge. I confirmed with her that I would have access to those lounges even though I am flying with AF. She said yes.

With the possible exception of the 50kg total baggage allowance, I'm 100% confident that the information provided by the three agents is 100% wrong.

It's been two years and it's not like I've spent enough time on the phone to Qantas in recent months so I tried again. This time, I limited my query to what the additional baggage allowance is for a Platinum travelling on AF. Several minutes of hold time later I was told it's 27kg for Y and premium Y, 37kg for J and 47kg for F. What bizarre numbers. And, I'm sure, not remotely correct.

I tried again yesterday to get some clarity. I spent 45 minutes on the line with an agent in Hobart. First, "I've checked the oneworld website and neither Air France or KLM are members." Really? I had no idea. He added, "so you don't get any additional benefits", to which I said, "So the Qantas website is wrong, again, is that correct?" He had no knowledge of the QF relationship so I directed him to the pages that say that QFF receive various benefits with AF and KL. He was surprised and immediately agreed that "Extra checked baggage allowance" was completely useless information. He went back and forth with a senior trying to get an answer but eventually said he'd have to make further enquiries up the chain and to give it a week for a response. Considering I've been waiting from a response to a letter sent to Qantas 21 weeks ago (and sent to Stephane Tully 7 weeks ago), I can't imagine that timeframe being accurate.

 

[Port Power]

I tried again yesterday to get some clarity. I spent 45 minutes on the line with an agent in Hobart. First, "I've checked the oneworld website and neither Air France or KLM are members." Really? I had no idea. He added, "so you don't get any additional benefits", to which I said, "So the Qantas website is wrong, again, is that correct?" He had no knowledge of the QF relationship so I directed him to the pages that say that QFF receive various benefits with AF and KL. He was surprised and immediately agreed that "Extra checked baggage allowance" was completely useless information. He went back and forth with a senior trying to get an answer but eventually said he'd have to make further enquiries up the chain and to give it a week for a response. Considering I've been waiting from a response to a letter sent to Qantas 21 weeks ago (and sent to Stephane Tully 7 weeks ago), I can't imagine that timeframe being accurate.

I leave Perth on October 8 and the KLM flight is October 9. I’ll probably have a definitive answer for you before the Qantas call centre!

I’m doing the full test outbound. Economy seat, WP status and two pieces of checked luggage. Watch this space!

 

[Pushka]

I made points booking last week with KLM.

 

[Danger]

I tried again yesterday to get some clarity. I spent 45 minutes on the line with an agent in Hobart. First, "I've checked the oneworld website and neither Air France or KLM are members." Really? I had no idea. He added, "so you don't get any additional benefits", to which I said, "So the Qantas website is wrong, again, is that correct?" He had no knowledge of the QF relationship so I directed him to the pages that say that QFF receive various benefits with AF and KL. He was surprised and immediately agreed that "Extra checked baggage allowance" was completely useless information. He went back and forth with a senior trying to get an answer but eventually said he'd have to make further enquiries up the chain and to give it a week for a response. Considering I've been waiting from a response to a letter sent to Qantas 21 weeks ago (and sent to Stephane Tully 7 weeks ago), I can't imagine that timeframe being accurate.

The Hobart-based agent I spoke to in that call never phoned me back, so I tried again. This time another agent in Hobart put me on hold and spoke to someone else. A short time later he returned to say AF and KL match the respective Qantas tier allowance. So, for example, an intra-European flight in Y has a base allowance of 23kg on KL but a Platinum would get 50kg or 60kg in J.

I'm a long way from being convinced this is accurate, even further away from believing an AF or KL agent would know of it, even if it is true.

 

[ChrisMars]

We need someone to put it to test, i.e. put a couple of bricks in the bag, and if the allowance is not recognize, removed the bricks to be under the limit. I would do it, just to see the reaction of the checkin agent face No plan to fly AF/KLM unfortunatly.

 

[Port Power]

We need someone to put it to test, i.e. put a couple of bricks in the bag, and if the allowance is not recognize, removed the bricks to be under the limit. I would do it, just to see the reaction of the checkin agent face No plan to fly AF/KLM unfortunatly.

Less than 3 weeks to go! I booked both flights on KLM metal via the Hobert call centre. AMS-BLL on a paid Y flight and I will have 2 suitcases, having arrived in AMS in J. The return BLL-AMS on Oct 12 is a classic reward J seat.

I will report back. (Just in case, I have printed out the relevant agreement!)

 

[Danger]

Less than 3 weeks to go! I booked both flights on KLM metal via the Hobert call centre. AMS-BLL on a paid Y flight and I will have 2 suitcases, having arrived in AMS in J. The return BLL-AMS on Oct 12 is a classic reward J seat.

I will report back. (Just in case, I have printed out the relevant agreement!)

Where's the agreement you've printed?

 

[Port Power]

Where's the agreement you've printed?

It was the original announcement about the agreement. I’d have to search through to find it now, but probably could. It was published in AFF news too, which is probably easier to find. I’m having coffee and a shortbread in front of the television right now, so not motivated to find the source! I am blithely confidant that a published perk will be honoured.
Edit: I am also confident enough to stick to my guns at KLM check in!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The Hobart-based agent I spoke to in that call never phoned me back, so I tried again. This time another agent in Hobart put me on hold and spoke to someone else. A short time later he returned to say AF and KL match the respective Qantas tier allowance. So, for example, an intra-European flight in Y has a base allowance of 23kg on KL but a Platinum would get 50kg or 60kg in J.

I'm a long way from being convinced this is accurate, even further away from believing an AF or KL agent would know of it, even if it is true.

Interesting they sate an intra-Euro Y flight has 23kg allowance... the cheapest fares all have zero allowance... you need to move up to the next level for the free bag, which is about 30-40 euros more IIRC.

Maybe as part of the agreement the 23kg is granted for status holders of ruby and above as the base? That's what I've been trying to find out. (In the meantime i have been avoiding KLM/AF and taking BA.)

 

[ozflier]

I am trying to book a OWA may/june next year .
I'm telling you nothing new that flights to and from Europe have close to nil business class availability.
I am seeing more Air France and KLM flights which would help the situation but of course , they are not OW airlines.
Has Qantas considered allowing KLM and AF to count as OW airlines as part of a One World Award booking ?
Obviously for a limited period ( eg til some other options like via HND,HKG are on offer. )

 

[Port Power]

I am trying to book a OWA may/june next year .
I'm telling you nothing new that flights to and from Europe have close to nil business class availability.
I am seeing more Air France and KLM flights which would help the situation but of course , they are not OW airlines.
Has Qantas considered allowing KLM and AF to count as OW airlines as part of a One World Award booking ?
Obviously for a limited period ( eg til some other options like via HND,HKG are on offer. )

I doubt that it is up to Qantas. A OWA would have to be on actual One World Member flights.

 

[ozflier]

I understand what you are saying
but
there seems to be little equivalence between OW airlines and their "multi carrier" awards - eg between AA and QF - the rules and restrictions differ. For example, BA and JL calculate mileage to calculate points needed on the basis of total mileage not individual segments see @.
The multi carrier awards are not similar though i guess the principle is the same.
In the end , one airline pays for one of their frequent fliers to travel on another and vv. Hopefully , they even out in the end .
This must already be happening between QF and KLM for award seats on each others aircraft - KLM and AF already bookable as a QF classic awards and this would presumably apply for KLM FFs on Qantas. ( maybe it works in another may - I don't know )
This kind of arrangement works in non OWA awards
so
I suggest that OWAward carriers temporarily include KLM and AF (and finally free up some award business class seats to europe).
This could be an opportunity for QF in times of poor international "u" class availability (and probable return to change fees) to create some good will!

@ Oneworld Multi-Carrier Awards: What To Know - NerdWallet

 

[Port Power]

I understand what you are saying
but
there seems to be little equivalence between OW airlines and their "multi carrier" awards - eg between AA and QF - the rules and restrictions differ. For example, BA and JL calculate mileage to calculate points needed on the basis of total mileage not individual segments see @.
The multi carrier awards are not similar though i guess the principle is the same.
In the end , one airline pays for one of their frequent fliers to travel on another and vv. Hopefully , they even out in the end .
This must already be happening between QF and KLM for award seats on each others aircraft - KLM and AF already bookable as a QF classic awards and this would presumably apply for KLM FFs on Qantas. ( maybe it works in another may - I don't know )
This kind of arrangement works in non OWA awards
so
I suggest that OWAward carriers temporarily include KLM and AF (and finally free up some award business class seats to europe).
This could be an opportunity for QF in times of poor international "u" class availability (and probable return to change fees) to create some good will!

@ Oneworld Multi-Carrier Awards: What To Know - NerdWallet

If Qantas is selling most of their U class seats, then they have no incentive to give them away as reward seats. In any case, QF has made individual agree me with KLM and AF. The One World alliance has not. There is a cost to joining OW, which KLM and AF have not paid. You will need to organise a conference to get agreement from all OW members. ”Temporary” membership is a nice dream or yours, but not at all likely.

 

[ozflier]

I tried to make the point that the "oneworld award" rules and restrictions are not the same for all carriers.
Individual carriers can change the rules as it suits them- eg Qatar severely restricts QFF members access to their premium seats ) for long after carriers like BA and AA get access to them.
Being a fully signed up member of OW clearly mean that you have to strictly follow the rules and maybe that is never meant to be ( see example of Qatar)!
As I see it , there is a "general concept" of a OWAward but with a lot of flexibility .
As I see it, just because QFF has a private arrangement to exchange access to award seats would not require the affected airlines to actually join OW.
If such private / individual agreements are illegal , it would be interested to see what action is going to be taken against Qatar.
I understand your suggestion that QF is short of international premium seats( either to give to its own fliers or other airline members).
That may be so but QF has to maintain impressions that the average punter can take a once in a lifetime trip at the front of the plane as payback for his credit card or shopping or flights .
Sooner or later , QFF members are going to realise that their points are only good for Qantas shopping or international economy flights . The businesses who buy those points are going to start asking whether they and their clients are getting value for money!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I doubt that it is up to Qantas. A OWA would have to be on actual One World Member flights.

Is a OWA an ‘official’ OW product, or simply something qantas has cobbled together? If the latter, qf can do anything and include anyone they want.

Aeroplan is star alliance but pretty much allows use and cross-use of all partners, including non-aligned ones like etihad and gulf air.

 

[ChrisMars]

That may be so but QF has to maintain impressions that the average punter can take a once in a lifetime trip at the front of the plane as payback for his credit card or shopping or flights .
Sooner or later , QFF members are going to realise that their points are only good for Qantas shopping or international economy flights . The businesses who buy those points are going to start asking whether they and their clients are getting value for money!

AF/KLM makes it's award inventory available to Qantas. Changing the OWA to OWAFKLMA will not magically add extra seats.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

AF/KLM makes it's award inventory available to Qantas. Changing the OWA to OWAFKLMA will not magically add extra seats.

but it would give more options to complete a OWA, at OWA pricing.