Earth (Qantas) vs Krisflyer

[zzyss]

I currently have the Westpac Altitude Platinum card, and figured that I don't value "reward products" as much as do flights, which is why I'm considering changing to one of the direct sweep cards. So the choice really comes down to Qantas vs Singapore Airlines.

My wife and I both definitely prefer Singapore as the airline of choice, but wondering if anybody has any comments on the differences in burn rates between the two airlines' loyalty programs? e.g. which one tends to have better special offers, promotions and incentives? I've heard that Singapore tend to charge a lot in taxes, etc., but that much may be countered by the fact that the Visa earn rate on Earth is less (0.5pt/$) than the Krisflyer card (1pt/$, and 1.5pt/$ overseas)

As you can probably tell, I'm much more inclined towards the Krisflyer option, but that's why I'm posting - curious to know whether there's anything that I'm missing.

 

[joeymelb]

Why not sign up for both and then decide?

Currently, WP Earth has a promption with waived annual fee for first year plus 10,000 points after making 3 transactions by 31/1/2010.

I have both cards and I prefer KF Plat over Earth. The main reason is that I fly SQ/*A only internationally. I signed up for Earth to get 10K points then I will be cancelling that as soon as the points are credited.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Do you want to fly in J or Y?
Where do you want to fly?

If J then as long as you are happy with one of the shrinking number of destinations that you can get a Saver (SQ has 3 rates with Saver half of normal) J Reward too then IMO SQ is way in front despite higher fuel fines.
SQ also give a 15% discount for on-line bookings.

This means one can get a Europe return flight in J for 127500 vs QF of double that.

For someone with no status SQ has much better availability in my experience.

However if in Y, while availability again appears to be much better the fuel fines really detract from the value.

However one way around this would be redeeming a Partner Award on a non-SQ partner such as Air New Zealand with much lower fuel fines.

However also consider how rapidly you earn points as with SQ you only have 18 months to use any points once credited (and with direct earn that is each month) whereas with QF you have 18 months from last earn (effectively this means no expiring as with Everyday Rewards it is easy to accrue activity for little cost). Unless your CC is reasonably high you might not eran points quick enough and particularly if you want to say redeem for 2 or more tickets.

Id so then consider say an Amex Plat earning at 1,5, but where points are held at Amex till you want to dump them.

 

[token01]

where is this promotion for the earth card?
im on the website and cant see it????

 

[dajop]

Do you want to fly in J or Y?
Where do you want to fly?

If J then as long as you are happy with one of the shrinking number of destinations that you can get a Saver (SQ has 3 rates with Saver half of normal) J Reward too then IMO SQ is way in front despite higher fuel fines.
SQ also give a 15% discount for on-line bookings.

This means one can get a Europe return flight in J for 127500 vs QF of double that.

For someone with no status SQ has much better availability in my experience.

With the J saver awards to Europe - even if can't get saver, it's the same as QF (well actually 1,000 pts less) on "newer" business class and availability excellent for not being "saver awards". Nevertheless there are some good alternatives to redeeming awards on SQ using star alliance partners for 150,000 pts, including Thai and Asiana and other combinations.

Also with economy, even with the higher taxes (and really for trips to SE Asia not a lot of difference) the savings in pts are considerable 80,750 on SQ to Europe vs 128,000 on QF, with a bigger choice of destinations (now that BA is on different point earning table) and stopover allowed in SIN in one direction.

The one real gem in QF is the one world award (aka round the world award) - 35000 miles and five stopovers for 140/280/520K in Y/J/F, if that's the aim - earth card's the go, otherwise I'd be tilting towards SQ.

I too think the point expiry is a watchout, therefore the Amex makes a lot of sense.

 

[joeymelb]

where is this promotion for the earth card?
im on the website and cant see it????

Check out this post: http://www.frequentflyer.com.au/community/westpac-earth/10k-bonus-qff-offer-20685.html

Cheers.

 

[kamchatsky]

Do you want to fly in J or Y?
Where do you want to fly?

If J then as long as you are happy with one of the shrinking number of destinations that you can get a Saver (SQ has 3 rates with Saver half of normal) J Reward too then IMO SQ is way in front despite higher fuel fines.
SQ also give a 15% discount for on-line bookings.

This means one can get a Europe return flight in J for 127500 vs QF of double that.

For someone with no status SQ has much better availability in my experience.

However if in Y, while availability again appears to be much better the fuel fines really detract from the value.

However one way around this would be redeeming a Partner Award on a non-SQ partner such as Air New Zealand with much lower fuel fines.

However also consider how rapidly you earn points as with SQ you only have 18 months to use any points once credited (and with direct earn that is each month) whereas with QF you have 18 months from last earn (effectively this means no expiring as with Everyday Rewards it is easy to accrue activity for little cost). Unless your CC is reasonably high you might not eran points quick enough and particularly if you want to say redeem for 2 or more tickets.

Id so then consider say an Amex Plat earning at 1,5, but where points are held at Amex till you want to dump them.

I used to fly QF often and collect QF but now have switched to Singapore Airlines and Star Alliance whenever I can.

Singapore Air Krisflyer miles have 3 years expiry rather than 18 month expiry. So if you collect and burn points on a regular basis, then Singapore Air is much better because Star Alliance have much better reach, and in fact SQ is better airline IMHO.

It is now even more flexible that you can book 1-way SQ and Star Alliance awards. EG: 1way SQ award Sydney to Hong Kong on BUSINESS would be 38250 points if book online on J Saver. Whereas QF award Sydney to Hong Kong ECONOMY would be 30000 points. For only 8250 points, the difference are bigger/better seats, better service, lounge access, more luggage allowance, better food, priority checkin/luggage etc etc etc.

Leading by example, I am currently in China Southern lounge, waiting to fly SQ CAN (Guangzhou)-SIN-SYD on J Saver (same points as HKG).

 

[joeymelb]

It is now even more flexible that you can book 1-way SQ and Star Alliance awards. EG: 1way SQ award Sydney to Hong Kong on BUSINESS would be 38250 points if book online on J Saver. Whereas QF award Sydney to Hong Kong ECONOMY would be 30000 points. For only 8250 points, the difference are bigger/better seats, better service, lounge access, more luggage allowance, better food, priority checkin/luggage etc etc etc.

Leading by example, I am currently in China Southern lounge, waiting to fly SQ CAN (Guangzhou)-SIN-SYD on J Saver (same points as HKG).

Shhh... stop encouraging other FFers to redeem SQ J Savers... they are hard to come by already, you are just encouraging more competition!!

Seriously, SQ J Standard Redemption is not that bad either, available on almost all the flights and definitely uses far less points than QF's Any Seat.

Lastly, if you buy SQ ticket using KF AMEX Plat, you get double points. Given the low redemption cost (Y Savers), you will earn enough within the 3-year-point-expiry to fly somewhere with SQ.

 

[albatross710]

I currently have the Westpac Altitude Platinum card, and figured that I don't value "reward products" as much as do flights, which is why I'm considering changing to one of the direct sweep cards. So the choice really comes down to Qantas vs Singapore Airlines.

I am a fan of the SQ Krisflyer card and am earning good points and making good international redemptions.

Do consider that SQ do not have any sensible redemption options for domestic flights. If you are wanting redemptions for intra-Oz destinations then the Earth card may be the way to go.

For international I think you can do the sums to determine the best card for your situation:

1. Start with the number of points needed for your desired award on each program
2. Calculate what you would have to spend on each card to achieve that award
3. Will you accrue those points within the 'expiry window(s)

For instance

SQ
1. Return BNE-AMS in Business Class 150,000 krisflyer miles or 127,500 booked on line
2. Requires a spend of $85,000 on KF AMex or $127,000 on KF Visa card.

QF
1. Return BNE-HKK-LHR-AMS Economy Class 128,000 qantas points.
2. Requires a spend of $128,000 on Earth Amex or $256,000 in Earth Visa


Amsterdam is a bit of a sweet spot as SQ J Saver are available but this shows the stark difference in required spending to achieve a better class of travel for less $$. You can do your own version of figures for you target destination.

Hope that helps.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Singapore Air Krisflyer miles have 3 years expiry rather than 18 month expiry. ).

Yes my bad..it is 3 years.

Mix and Match

On optimising and all depending on what your individual various earns and burns are it can make a lot of sense to explote multiple FF programs.

For eaxmple:

Paid flights: accrue *A to BMI and OW to AA (Most of my international flights are redemptions and so my paid flights on QF are mainly discount dom/international and so I gain more points by accruing to QF)

Paid cars: I am currently accruing to BMI (but rarely hire)

CC spend: Krisflyer for VISA..and either KF Plat Amex or Pat Amex (allows other airlines choices as well.

Hotels: Unfortunately my work Hotel stays are virtually always freebies from the hotels and so I have not really bothered to look at what is best...so I cannot advise here. So as I rarely pay I just credit either KF or QF depending on which one earns me more points when assessed after eran/burn. If you werea frequent hotel stayer it may make more sense to credit a hotel program.

For me running three programs in KF, QF and BMI maximise my various earn and burn opportunities. For each of us it will be different and for some it will make sense to only use one.

Being a resident of Australia presents a number of QF point opportunities that can only go there.

KF and it's partners are my main focus of redemptions at present. But QF will supply me two or three RTW OW redemptions in J.

 

[zzyss]

Thanks for all the responses. The expiry on KF points is definitely a gotcha - I hadn't considered that. Don't think it would be a problem in general, but you never know maybe you have a crook year and bam, you lose a bunch of points.

I don't plan to redeem for domestic flights, only doing SYD-ADL trips once maybe twice a year which I happily pay for, and I'm currently working to a 2 year cycle with every 2nd trip being Europe (to visit the in-laws), and various destinations in between. I clocked around 100k points last year, but it was a pretty bum year what with the GFC and all, so future years will look better.

However, the *real* kicker is that I'm currently getting the Altitude Plat fee free, thanks to having a home loan with Westpac. It remains to be seen whether they'd be willing to extend that "courtesy" to a direct sweep card (I'm 99% sure it was a mistake on their part that I managed to get it)...

 

[lovetravellingoz]

However, the *real* kicker is that I'm currently getting the Altitude Plat fee free, thanks to having a home loan with Westpac. It remains to be seen whether they'd be willing to extend that "courtesy" to a direct sweep card (I'm 99% sure it was a mistake on their part that I managed to get it)...

1/ It is common for Westpac to waive the fee on it's Altitude cards if you have a home loan. What you get will vary on yours loans and your negotiating skills.
2/ With the Westpac KF card I negotiated terms that the KF combo will only cost me $125 after year one (most people if not all others will pay $250). This year I also had the $125 initial fee waived as well as the $250 fee on on my Westpac Earth.
3/ Even if you have to pay the full amount as you have flagged that you can earn 100K of points in a year I would suggest you do your sums:

KF Amex earns at 1.5 and KF VISA earns at 1.0 and transfers at 1.0/1.0

From memory your Altitude VISA earns at 1.0 and transfers at 4/3 which devalues the points further. Your Amex earn is also devalued.

So calculate how many less points you would earn and given that you indicated that your total earn was 100K I think you will find that the points lost is worth a lot more than a $250 fee.

 

[albatross710]

Thanks for all the responses. The expiry on KF points is definitely a gotcha - I hadn't considered that. Don't think it would be a problem in general, but you never know maybe you have a crook year and bam, you lose a bunch of points.

The points expire after three years plus can be extended for 6 months before redemption which could be for a flight 350 days in advance. All up you could be travelling almost 4½ years after earning the points. KF status can extend another 6 months on top.

Expiry of miles
Your KrisFlyer miles are valid for three years, and you will be notified in your account statement before they are due to expire. As a KrisFlyer member, you may extend your miles once for six months at a nominal fee. If you are a KrisFlyer Elite Silver, KrisFlyer Elite Gold or PPS Club member, you may extend your miles for one year. Simply login to extend your KrisFlyer miles online.

FWIW, I'm not keen on leaving points to accrue for too long due to the inherent risk that schemes are devalued over time.

 

[dajop]

From memory your Altitude VISA earns at 1.0 and transfers at 4/3 which devalues the points further. Your Amex earn is also devalued.

The net earn rates (for KF transfers) are 1.5 KF points/$ on altitude platinum amex and 0.5 KF points/$ on accompanying visa. The advantage of KF card is extra 0.5KF point/$ on Visa spend (1 point/$ on O/S visa spend) and double points on Singapore airlines spend. The trade off for these lost points (the amount of loss really depends on proportion going to the visa vs the amex) is increased flexibility - for example I transferred some Altitude pts to MH, and got return J class MEL-KUL-MEL for 38K pts :!: last year during one of their specials (tfring at the same rate as they do to SQ, and at that time -QF).

 

[zzyss]

The net earn rates (for KF transfers) are 1.5 KF points/$ on altitude platinum amex and 0.5 KF points/$ on accompanying visa. The advantage of KF card is extra 0.5KF point/$ on Visa spend (1 point/$ on O/S visa spend) and double points on Singapore airlines spend. The trade off for these lost points (the amount of loss really depends on proportion going to the visa vs the amex) is increased flexibility - for example I transferred some Altitude pts to MH, and got return J class MEL-KUL-MEL for 38K pts :!: last year during one of their specials (tfring at the same rate as they do to SQ, and at that time -QF).

I've decided to stick to stick with Altitude after all, for pretty much the above reason - flexibility. The difference being that I don't touch my Visa, and use Citibank Gold instead, where the net transfer rate is 0.6 KF points per dollar. Not the biggest difference in the world, but more than is worth the hassle.

It just means I won't be able to consolidate with the QFF points that I earn through EDR, not that they amount to much.