Cork or screw-cap?

[thewineguy]

Yeah I hope this trial of screw cap is not a precursor for a permanent change.

I love a cork, and it adds so much to the experience of opening a bottle.

 

[Daver6]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

Yeah I hope this trial of screw cap is not a precursor for a permanent change.

I love a cork, and it adds so much to the experience of opening a bottle.

I don't know how anyone can say that. The only experience cork adds is that of disappointment and frustration. I'm so over opening a wine to find it either corked or oxidised. I realise screw cap isn't perfect but its orders or magnitude better than cork closures.

 

[Dr Ralph]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I don't know how anyone can say that. The only experience cork adds is that of disappointment and frustration.

I note this is off topic (so I won't comment further) - but I couldn't disagree more.

I always buy cork whenever it's available.

If you're having significant cork failure rates you need to look at your storage methods, not the corks.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I note this is off topic - but I couldn't disagree more.

I always buy cork whenever it's available.

So what does cork add then, since you disagree?

I'm with Daver6. I'm here to drink wine not obsess over how I open the bottle

 

[AdMEL]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

So what does cork add then, since you disagree?

I'm with Daver6. I'm here to drink wine not obsess over how I open the bottle

I've just finished a lunch with Mac Forbes at Belotta/Prince Wine Store - Mac had an interesting take on the cork v screw cap argument ... He said he's moving back to cork! He mentioned that his experience is that wines under cork are often better than wines under screw cap. I asked whether what I've heard about cork now being quality is true and he said it is. Interesting, as I've always thought screw cap was better. He mentioned that Diam was the worst of the three.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I've just finished a lunch with Mac Forbes at Belotta/Prince Wine Store - Mac had an interesting take on the cork v screw cap argument ... He said he's moving back to cork! He mentioned that his experience is that wines under cork are often better than wines under screw cap. I asked whether what I've heard about cork now being quality is true and he said it is. Interesting, as I've always thought screw cap was better. He mentioned that Diam was the worst of the three.

Certainly modern corks are far superior to the stuff you see in bottles from 10+ years ago. The problem is all of us holding bottles that are 10+ years old, under cork, and seeing both cork failures and bottle variation. You can see from Daver6's posts in the Nice Wines thread the type of older stuff he has access to, and whilst I have nothing like that, I also do find it disappointing to open bottles that are ruined.

Not sure why someone would think a bottle under cork is better than a bottle under screwcap. Did he give any reason why?

 

[AdMEL]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

Certainly modern corks are far superior to the stuff you see in bottles from 10+ years ago. The problem is all of us holding bottles that are 10+ years old, under cork, and seeing both cork failures and bottle variation. You can see from Daver6's posts in the Nice Wines thread the type of older stuff he has access to, and whilst I have nothing like that, I also do find it disappointing to open bottles that are ruined.

Not sure why someone would think a bottle under cork is better than a bottle under screwcap. Did he give any reason why?

Being based in the Yarra Valley, Mac's main wines are Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. And he pushes the wine making envelope a little. His view was that after much trial and error over time (we had 2015, 2010 & 2008 Woori Chardonnay and Pinot Noir), cork allows a better wine to develop, due to allowing the wine to breathe/oxidise and whilst it does allow much more variation, the average is better than with a screw cap, which whilst allowing the wine to age to be good, it doesn't allow it to be great. Hope that makes sense ... It's been a long lunch!


Mods, given this is off topic, would you be so kind as to move the relevant posts to the wine musings thread. Ta.

 

[beefarmer]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

So what does cork add then, since you disagree?

I'm with Daver6. I'm here to drink wine not obsess over how I open the bottle

But you , Daver6 and others are wrong .Let me explain for you.


Cork adds a hint, a little prelude to the romance that will ensue. Prior to the momentous occasion of actually first seeing that compressed bark tissue is the initiation phase, very important at the onset, of removing the foil or protective sleeve should that exist. Kind of sounds like a young school kid doing the proper thing on a prom night way ..... except in reverse ! The exposure of this sexy, sultry, suggestive suberin brings sighs of adulation and endearment especially when some caricature or initials are found stamped on the side of the cork. Kind of like a tribal image provoking thoughts of fondness, familiarity, quality and acceptance. The excitement builds on inspection of the exposed circular tip of the cork and the extraction process to follow is one of life's highlights.

The tool, aptly named for this extraction, is the corkscrew. What a fantastic name for this so called waiters friend. I have worked in hospitality and in my day, this was not a waiters friend. A waiters friend was someone who tipped ! But for those who prefer their Maseratis to their Mazdas, we have the Parrot cork extractor. Or the Frog using a clever metal criss cross design. Or the Quick and Easy, the Wriggle and Twist.,the Italian Stapi, the As As, the Pam or the Ideal. Or the famous Ah-So. Designed by that German company Monopol. this device, with its unimaginable simplicity has the ability to define your enjoyment pleasure like no other, especially when dealing with the more mature wines. If fragments should plunge into the waiting crystal glass below, then this humble device should be renamed the Ah-Sole. No hint of broken cork should compromise this hedonistic activity. There is so much more class, so much more finesse, so much more work involved when opening a lovely bottle of wine as compared to the simple action of turning a metal cap anticlockwise two or three times. Where I ask is the beauty, the elegance, the pizzazz and essentially the romance in this so primal of instincts? There is none.

The ultimate finale of this initial phase is the enjoyment of the bottle contents. There is hesitation, excitement, and an increased pulse rate, there is an overwhelming desire to taste, however there is a reason why we have two nostrils and we must use them fully as God designed them. Air is free so take a big long sniff to entice. If we are happy with the scent so far, time for a little bit of sucking. But what happens when you look around the room, under your shoes, on your clothes searching for something that smells like sweaty socks, a damp cloth, your wet dog but actually it's in your hands. Romance over. Game over.



PS Just went into the hallowed room and pulled out something for the next three hours. A Willunga 100 Cab/Shiraz 2014.
Wearing thongs, in the study typing, and the two cats are outside.
And how is the wine..............smells beautiful and tastes even better.
Stelvin closure - you really didn't have to ask !

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

Being based in the Yarra Valley, Mac's main wines are Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. And he pushes the wine making envelope a little. His view was that after much trial and error over time (we had 2015, 2010 & 2008 Woori Chardonnay and Pinot Noir), cork allows a better wine to develop, due to allowing the wine to breathe/oxidise and whilst it does allow much more variation, the average is better than with a screw cap, which whilst allowing the wine to age to be good, it doesn't allow it to be great. Hope that makes sense ... It's been a long lunch!

My understanding is that there are screwcaps that allow oxygen exchange. And I guess that'd be far more uniformly calibrated across the bottles of a vintage, as opposed to the variability in cork.
Seems that there have been a number of studies done, and I'd trust someone using the scientific method and mass testing, over the gut feel of a wine maker here or there.

 

[Daver6]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I note this is off topic (so I won't comment further) - but I couldn't disagree more.

I always buy cork whenever it's available.

If you're having significant cork failure rates you need to look at your storage methods, not the corks.

How apt. Opened a '76 La Lagune yesterday and what do you know. Bloody well corked

I don't think you understand TCA if you believe it has anything to do with storage methods. My storage methods while not a chalk cave in France are pretty good. I have a temperature controlled cellar that sits at about 13C and 60-70% relative humidity all year round.

I've yet to have a faulty wine under screw cap, but not shortage under cork. A few have been oxidised but mainly its TCA.

Now I don't disagree that there is a bit of that romance to removing a cork, but I'll happily forgo it to not take a chance that my wine is spoilt.

There do seem to be some advances in diam corks where they can apparently remove all traces of TCA. I'll still take screw cap or vinolock closures over cork though.

Finally, I suspect a lot of people just accept faulty wine without actually realising its a fault, especially when its a wine they haven't had before. They land up just thinking wow, this wine/producer is rubbish and never buy it again.

Yes, very OT for this thread. Perhaps mods can move this to a wine faults thread or something?

 

[roshea]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I've yet to have a faulty wine under screw cap, but not shortage under cork. A few have been oxidised but mainly its TCA.

Now I don't disagree that there is a bit of that romance to removing a cork, but I'll happily forgo it to not take a chance that my wine is spoilt.

I have to agree with you there. In over 30 years of drinking wine, I'd say about 5% of bottles were corked (TCA), but I've never had that fault in a screw-cap bottle. Some people don't know what TCA is or don't notice it. I had a glass of something recently at the cinema that was corked. I was confused initially because I assumed it was a screw-cap (current vintage of something from South Australia), turns out it was a cork. I feel like the percentage of tainted wines under cork is decreasing, but they still exist and it's always disappointing.

 

[baiden]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I have to agree with you there. In over 30 years of drinking wine, I'd say about 5% of bottles were corked (TCA), but I've never had that fault in a screw-cap bottle. Some people don't know what TCA is or don't notice it. I had a glass of something recently at the cinema that was corked. I was confused initially because I assumed it was a screw-cap (current vintage of something from South Australia), turns out it was a cork. I feel like the percentage of tainted wines under cork is decreasing, but they still exist and it's always disappointing.

A good link to explain the subtleties or obvious impacts of TCA.

Trichloroanisole (TCA) Fact Sheet - The Wine Institute

 

[georgehall]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

Again it's off topic, but responding to the above.

I agree that screw cap is superior, but have we had enough time to properly assess it? I.e has anyone sampled a 30 year old Barolo under screw cap? If so - Has it had that subtle minuscule oxidising that cork gives that allows it to develop?

I don't have the answer...every old wine I have drunk has been under cork. Just a thought while watching the tigers get spanked.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

Again it's off topic, but responding to the above.

I agree that screw cap is superior, but have we had enough time to properly assess it? I.e has anyone sampled a 30 year old Barolo under screw cap? If so - Has it had that subtle minuscule oxidising that cork gives that allows it to develop?

I don't have the answer...every old wine I have drunk has been under cork. Just a thought while watching the tigers get spanked.

Yes there has been plenty of time to see how the screw caps work. AWI, penfolds and others have been experimenting for over 30 years.

But, you won't find a quality Barolo under screwcap, yet. Herasey in the Langhe to suggest such things! I tried with a number of winemakers 2 years ago and even from The Barolo Boys who revolutionised the concept of Barolo, it was treated with great distain.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I've just finished a lunch with Mac Forbes at Belotta/Prince Wine Store - Mac had an interesting take on the cork v screw cap argument ... He said he's moving back to cork! He mentioned that his experience is that wines under cork are often better than wines under screw cap. I asked whether what I've heard about cork now being quality is true and he said it is. Interesting, as I've always thought screw cap was better. He mentioned that Diam was the worst of the three.

I find it interesting just how myth based and unscientific a number of winemakers are. Some still "believe" that corks allow ingess of oxygen to allow wines to develop. This is just not evidenced based. With one MP boutique Pinot maker we met at a meet the winemaker dinner in Melbourne some year ago I discussed this and she had the strong view that she specifically purchased corks that allowed certain amounts of oxygen into her wines to allow breathing in the bottle over a two year period. My thoughts were that she was very confused about the corks sold according to the permeability of oxygen with the price and quality of the cork enclosure.

It's just not scientifically valid that corks are supposed to allow wines to breathe. The closure is designed to seal the wine from the descent into the vinegar phase. Screw caps do this much better for long term storage. Full stop.

With original Stelvin class closures for Pinot, in NZ, there was an argument about " reductive characteristics" in screw capped wines because of build up on H2S in the wine. Nautilus, for example, solved this years ago by a small injection of oxygen under the cap before closure.

Evidence and scientific method is preferable to myths of some winemakers, IMHO.

Nothing worse than keeping an expensive wine for 20 years just to find the bottle corked. Far too late to take the bottle back to the seller and demand a replacement.

Interestingly, we've found many very expensive Italians - Sassicaia, Gaia Chardonnay, and aged Barolos to be corked in recent years. It takes strength of conviction to send back a €250+ bottle because it's corked. (Note : while looked at strangely, we've always been successful. The problem arises when the second bottle of the same vintage is also corked, probably from the same batch of dodgy corks!)

Now, how to explain those who bury cow horns full of silica in the vineyard on the full moon....

 

[Daver6]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

TheRealTMA you have very much expressed my exact thoughts very elegantly.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

TheRealTMA you have very much expressed my exact thoughts very elegantly.

We should probably get a room!

(maybe a warehouse.)

 

[Delectable Blue]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I'm firmly in the screwcap camp. Although some of my preferred winemakers still persist with cork. Thankfully a few of them seem be toying with the idea of moving to screw cap. I was very pleased to pickup my 2014 Lakes Folly Cabernets in a mixed closure pack. Half under cork and half under screw cap. It will be interesting to track the development and see how they compare in the coming years.

 

[marki]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I'm firmly in the screwcap camp. Although some of my preferred winemakers still persist with cork. Thankfully a few of them seem be toying with the idea of moving to screw cap. I was very pleased to pickup my 2014 Lakes Folly Cabernets in a mixed closure pack. Half under cork and half under screw cap. It will be interesting to track the development and see how they compare in the coming years.

From my limited experience most see the cork as a quality issue ( better)

But the screw cap much much easier to open. Quality same! In my opinion.

 

[roshea]

Re: Dan Murphy's and Other Wine Deals

I was very pleased to pickup my 2014 Lakes Folly Cabernets in a mixed closure pack. Half under cork and half under screw cap. It will be interesting to track the development and see how they compare in the coming years.

Lakes Folly was responsible for probably my biggest corked wine disappointment. A 1997 cabernets of theirs I'd held for 15 years, waiting for a special occasion with good friends, was badly corked and undrinkable :-(