Business seats available - but not for me. Why?

[ThunderbirdNZ]

Backround: I travel long haul at least twice a year, on vacation. I've been with QFF for 25+ years and with my wife we are sitting on 600,000 points. In past 5 years we've been using other airlines as well when cheap deals come up. Where possible we fly business on long haul routes. We live in New Zealand (NZ)

Situation: We had a wedding in New York in April 2011 so we tried to get there using our points. No business seats available on any dates that month, but we kept coming back and trying again. In November we bit the bullet and used the points to buy economy seats. In the months following we kept looking, hoping to upgrade to business. But computer said "No".

So we flew there April 10 and yes the flight was full. Evidently Qantas had done a big sale in Australia, including Business seats. (A pity we kiwis weren't included in that). Once in New York we tried to organise an upgrade (using points) for the return leg, but no joy. Computer again said "No". But we did note that Qantas.com were offering US flyers a special price on seats, including Business.

The day before we returned we called the local Qantas number and asked about upgrading for the return leg. We were very clear about paying for it with our points, but they said they couldn't do anything. They suggested we go early to JFK and try for an upgrade at the terminal. So we did. Still no joy. We got shuffled between check-in and ticketing, with both desks insisting it was the other who could do an upgrade.

Result: we flew in our economy seats back to NZ, but this time there were seats free in Business. Qantas obviously missed an opportunity to soak up some of our points on an empty business seat; but given how hard we find it to use our points perhaps they bank on that?

Question: what are we doing wrong? I can never find a seat on Qantas when I want to use points. I have in the past spent two months going online every day trying to get a flight (with open dates) to Europe or the Americas with no luck. There just aren't any seats. But with Air NewZealand my airpoints equal air dollars and I can use them to buy any seat at any time for any flight. Why should I stick with Qantas, when all they can give me is a seat on a Transtasman flight (at full points) which I can easily buy at a discount anyway (since various airlines compete). And what do I do with our 600,000 QFF points?

 

[JetLagged]

Thuderbird, you did not mention whether you were trying to book a Classic Award or ASA seat: this makes selection a very different situation. Also, you did not menion what status you have with QAN; again, that alters the situation as the higher status you have the more possibilities open up. For instance, was your booking into an upgradeable bucket? Mind you, even with non-upgradeable fares, if you're a WP you can still get upgrades on points (if seats available, of course).

As a frequent flyer you know that award seats go on sale early and are often booked out very quickly, especially if flying in peak seasons. It is often a case of securing your booking 11 months before you fly. The number of J class seats is limited. And, as many other contributions in this forum have noted, Qantas is one airline that is happy to fly with empty seats rather upgrade passengers.

In regrads to your qeustion regarding what to do with your points: which Qantas site have you been using. If the NZ site (understandably), have you tried going through the AUS site. Many of us have found that booking through another country from where we live can achieve more awards, or cheaper prices etc.

With 600,000 points, we use them to upgrade purchased flights - buy discount J and upgrade to F, etc.

Good luck in the future,

JetLagged

 

[ThunderbirdNZ]

Thanks. I am but a lowly Bronze, although we did buy Qantas Club for 4 years, which expired 2010. It was a Qantas Award flight, and from memory we had to pay taxes and etc as well. I think maybe I've answered my own question in that Qantas don't make it easy and won't until the realise they are losing their competitive edge.

I guess maybe I'm stuck with all those points and will just have to sit on them until they change their model. Unfortunately I've already sat on them a long time and they devalue periodicly whenever Qantas rejig the rules.

I have tried logging on via foreign Qantas sites, but those canny IT guys have that sussed too. My ISP gives away my location and it will default back to the NZ site. Seeing what the Americans were offered (when I was in NY) was an eye opener.

 

[JetLagged]

I have tried logging on via foreign Qantas sites, but those canny IT guys have that sussed too. My ISP gives away my location and it will default back to the NZ site. Seeing what the Americans were offered (when I was in NY) was an eye opener.

Or consider what those flying from UK/Europe pay - that is an eye opener as well. I'm not sure why you default back to the NZ site - but I've used both the Singapore and UK QAN sites with no problems. Of course, this means you have to be flying out from that place. I've purchased SIN-LHR from the SIN site, while flying up to SIN on the QAN AUS site discount fare - worked out about $1000 cheaper. When flying back and forth to the UK, buy one AUS fare and sandwich it with a UK fare - that saved quite a few thousand dollars.

One just has to be creative - and, of course, follow the threads and ask the questions on this forum (see above, all from information from here).

As you said, as a Bronze flyer, then there are nowhere as many seats available - the same for other airlines - the more status you have, themore options you have. Of course, everyone has commented on how the QAN FF programme has degenerated more into a Frequent Spenders programme - but haven't a lot of airlines become this as well:?:

 

[medhead]

Just a couple of thoughts really. First with the upgrade, for international flights you request an upgrade and then have to wait until 5 hours before your flight to find out if it was successful - the upgrade lottery. So I'm a bit puzzled as to how you were able to get a computer says no answer when looking for upgrades over a couple of months.

With the website location. That is related to your start point, if you did change to the Oz site and then looked for flights from Auckland, then I expect that it will default back to the NZ site. As mentioned I have also booked a flight from SIngapore and that had no problems sticking to the Singapore site. Of course next time I opened the qantas site it default back the the Oz site. Again I'm confused about what happened on this.

Finally, to use your points some advanced planning is required, if possible. As a bronze, 11 months out. Perhaps you can use some of your points on any seat awards and get to silver status, that would then shorten your timeframe for booking awards and you might be able to get something better. As an example, as a platinum i was able to book an international business award about 6 months in advance. But availability was sparse at that stage. Basically if you want to use those points your going to need to strategise a bit. I'm sure many here can provide good advice along the way.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Hi,

When booking your flights you do have the option to book an "Any Seat Award" (or ASA). These work like Airpoints - each QFF point is worth about $0.01, and you can book any free seat on the plane.

For the cheaper "classic" awards, these are released 355 days out, and popular routes in premium cabins are snapped up pretty quickly. Sometimes QF may release additional seats, but no gaurantee.

Since you booked a classic award trip, there's no way of "upgrading" this with points - you can only cancel and rebook - provided there are award seats available. There is no entitlement to a seat, and AFAIK, there's no way to do this online, so I don't understand how "computer says no" would apply

(If you'd booked a revenue flight in an upgradable class, then you could have applied online, and would have been told approximately 5-24 hours prior to the flight)

 

[ThunderbirdNZ]

"Computer says 'No' " was a combination of the following:

me trying to make a change/upgrade of my current booking; and
me trying a dummy booking to see if any business seats had come up.

BTW - Those 'two months' I talked about earlier, where I tried every day to get something/anything, was me trying 11 months out....

 

[NM]

Its important to keep in mind that airlines make a limited number of FF award seats available and when they are all "sold" they may not release any more for any specific flight. This is the same as sale fares where they only make a finite number available per flight. Just because there are seats available in the same cabin does not mean they are available for all fare categories, including award seats.

One limitation with Qantas Classic Awards is that you cannot make changes once the ticket is issued. So if you want to change the class you have to cancel the original ticket (inuring the cancellation fee) and make a new booking for the new flight option. There is NO option to upgrade using points or otherwise) a Qantas Classic Award ticket.

So it would be possible to cancel the original Economy Classic Award ticket and make a new booking as a Business Class Any-Seat Award (known here as a JASA). However, that is likely to cost significantly more FF points than a classic award. Another option is to book an Economy Any-Seat Award (known here as YASA), using an upgradeable booking class, and then apply to waitlist for the upgrade lottery. However be aware that success in the upgrade lottery is not known until between 24 and 5 hours before departure and is te upgrade lottery waitlist is processed in priority order according to factors including the member's QFF status and the fare paid.

 

[Alanslegal]

You're not doing anything wrong ThunderbirdNZ.

Firstly Qantas releases very limited amounts of seats for classic award redemption, and then when those seats are on popular routes tend to be snapped up quite quickly.

To increase your chance of getting what seats you want at the classic award level, not only do you need loads of flexibility but the ability to book almost one whole year out before your actaul travel ... so the wedding was in April 11 and thus to have a decent chance you would have had to book in April 2010.

Also you mentioned you booked economy flights with points in the end and tried to upgrade, well award flights are non-upgradeable flights in any instance. so the computer was right and all the agents couldn't upgrade you anyway so going to JFK early was a waste of time if I could put it that way.

with empty seats in business class and qantas missing out on extra points, that is one good argument i hear alot but qantas also has to balance out the pro's and con's of upgrading someone. if qf upgraded every single time a spare seat was available and flyers knew this, some would start buying economy tix and try their upgrade luck. also flyers who paid full price for their tickets migght feel wronged knowing the entire premium cabin is on points or that their cabin is now less exclusive because it will be full each and every time because upgrades will be automartcally processed because a spare seat is available. theres a whole bunch of pro's n con's and its not always about the money value.

 

[NM]

with empty seats in business class and qantas missing out on extra points, that is one good argument i hear alot but qantas also has to balance out the pro's and con's of upgrading someone. if qf upgraded every single time a spare seat was available and flyers knew this, some would start buying economy tix and try their upgrade luck. also flyers who paid full price for their tickets migght feel wronged knowing the entire premium cabin is on points or that their cabin is now less exclusive because it will be full each and every time because upgrades will be automartcally processed because a spare seat is available. theres a whole bunch of pro's n con's and its not always about the money value.

One major reason they will not just fill all the business class seats with people wanting to spend their points on upgrades is so they can retain flexibility and availability for:

• last minute business class purchases
• disrupted operations

While the first category is driven by historic data on the probability of selling last minute tickets based on departure point, destination, time of the year, day of the week etc, it certainly does happen quite regularly.

The second is less statistically predictable for any specific flight. But especially out of places like LAX, they like to retain flexibility in case a flight is delayed or canceled. Telling a ticketed J passenger from say a delayed or canceled QF108 LAX-SYD that there are business class seats available on the alternate QF12 or indirect BNE/AKL flights) and making them either travel in economy or wait until the following day, is not desirable. So keeping some unsold seats available for flexibility rather than using them for points upgrades can certainly be to the airline's advantage. Of course if they are all "sold" for cash then they still have the problem for operational disruptions.

Domestically QF has the concept of "on-departure upgrades" processed close to departure time when loads and other factors are better known. Some other airlines also have this concept for international operations. Qantas chooses not to allow on-departure upgrades or waitlist/stand-by upgrades on the day of travel. If you have ever witnessed the "upgrade waitlist" process at the departure gate for airlines like AA, then you may be thankful that Qantas does not follow the same path.

 

[browski]

I'm sure you could have jagged a J award on Air Pacific, or LAN Chile (or even CX) Did you try those options either from the KVS availability tool, or by contacting Qantas by telephone?

 

[JohnPhelan]

Did you look for J award availability for one passenger, or only for two? It's not uncommon to see flights that have only one award seat available. But if you have put "2 pax" into the search in such cases, it will show up as nothing being available - because no flight has 2 seats available.

So if you have no luck funding 2 seats, try the same search for 1 seat.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

I have not had any joy with QANTAS either, but I do have friends who have
managed for a couple of years with great success. Their method is to book
just after midnight on day of release eg 355 days ahead - this of course gives
QANTAS use of your points (read money ) for nearly one year !

 

[straitman]

this of course gives
QANTAS use of your points (read money ) for nearly one year !

Isn't this the same with a prepurchase of any sort :?:

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

Hi Bill -

Not really. A few years ago I booked on EK Suites when they were on special out of SYD to Europe. The payment did not have to be made until about one month before
travel. (For this trip I paid $$$ not points)

I think that I have a "thing" about Qantas as I have never been able to book a
flight with them on points and it occurred to me that they would collect millions
of points ( dollars to them ) and have the use for nearly a year.

Our business commitments do not allow booking so far in advance so our
preferred carrier is SIN - always seems to be seats and we have often booked
only a month in advance. As we fly on points we have no status so I suppose we
are on the bottom of the heap !

Sorry about the ramble and thanks for the interest.

 

[opusman]

I think that I have a "thing" about Qantas as I have never been able to book a flight with them on points and it occurred to me that they would collect millions of points ( dollars to them ) and have the use for nearly a year.

Qantas make their money when you earn your points, not when you redeem then. It actually costs Qantas (potential) money when you redeem your points - that's one less seat they have to sell.

 

[medhead]

Qantas make their money when you earn your points, not when you redeem then. It actually costs Qantas (potential) money when you redeem your points - that's one less seat they have to sell.

Of course, the airline part of qantas group sells the seat to the FF part of Qantas group.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

Of course, the airline part of qantas group sells the seat to the FF part of Qantas group.

I'm lost.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how the points system works.
I collect points with AMEX and only transfer to an airline when I am sure I can
redeem for a flight so the airline only receives the points when I book.
I am Old and I am Tired and I really don't understand the system - all I know is that
I can readily book SIN seats at what I consider a reasonable exchange of points for seats - but I would appreciate clarification of the system and and some idea of the
eventual return to the airline.
310,000 Amex points gets me a return Bus to SIN and F from SIN to SFO. My cost
$6,000 to my supplier (A legitimate Tax deduction) Good Value to me. But what is left for the airline after AMEX gets their cut ?
Thanks for the interest and the help.

 

[medhead]

I'm not really sure about the deal at your end. In particular, the 300000 points for $6000 has me confused. But looking at the qantas annual reports and making some assumptions we can get the follow general idea. The card company pays qantas for any points that you get. Card company pays for the points from fees charge to card holders and merchants. Qantas FF has that money set aside. You redeem the points for a flight on qantas airline. Qantas airline charges QFF for the seat. QFF pays out of the money they got from the card company. QFF charge you enough points so that they make a profit, i.e. the money received from the card company for the redeemed points is greater than the cost of the seat.

One assumption is that qantas airline does not sell the seat to QFF below cost. So the airline is at least not losing money on the seat. Add to that QFF making a profit on selling (to card companies) and redeeming points. QFF also makes much bigger profit when people redeem non flight rewards.

I would assume it works like this for most airlines.

The card company will obviously set their fees to make a profit after paying for the points.

 

[Limewood]

I have not had any joy with QANTAS either, but I do have friends who have
managed for a couple of years with great success. Their method is to book
just after midnight on day of release eg 355 days ahead - this of course gives
QANTAS use of your points (read money ) for nearly one year !

I agree, as a Q Club and Bronze member it always seems so dam frustrating having to continually check the QFF site for an international J seat 6 months out, but in the end having to book it about a year ahead with points unless luck comes my way.

The most annoying thing of all is how one selects a J flight only, then when you get to the next page even if you've selected J it shows in many instances you have to go via another city to get on the international flight, even worse, it shows domestic as J and the international as Y. So I see the J flight is there so try and book it direct without going through another domestic OZ city, then its not available (they sure must have some great IT programers!).

Then some flights say OZ to LAX return on Q FF site for instance go via Asia I don't want to bloody well go via HK or Tokyo thanks and add 10 hours to the trip. Want to go J on a 380 in next 6 months to LAX return, well best of luck if you a lowly bronze like me.

If as one said, Q are still getting full value for the seats from CC companies why not release more to everyone, or is it they prefer we call up and pay thousands of points for a phone call (surely not), makes me wonder when I have had to a couple times, and guess what, bingo all of a sudden these J seats that are not on site appeared just like a Houdini trick.

I don't recall on applying for my CC offering FF points or when I signed up for QFF membership anything telling me if you are a lowly Bronze and want certain flights I might have to book as year in advance.

Am I annoyed and frustrated, well one could come to that conclusion!.