"... we'll shortly announce a major investment to improve our Frequent Flyer program"

[wandering_fred]

Absolutely agree, particulary to/from Asia.

Amazingly, MH flights as CR from Perth to Asian points seem to have re-appeared when I checked for the Sept/Oct 2024 time frame. And a small occurrence of J cabins seats. Given this is school holidays in WA I suspect they may not last long.
Oh the trials of arranging for future wandering
Fred

 

[drron]

Interesting point on what we ought to receive on spend - if you're spending on CC's with flexible reward programs, you might get between 0.6-1.2c per $1 if redeeming for gift cards, (similar to QF ofc). And of course, transferring to airlines/hotels can get you more. But then you trade flexibility - what's the price of that?

Some food chain programs can be alot better than just gift cards - McDonald's loyalty program, allows you to get an 80c Vanilla soft serve for spending $20 (4% return). And the local coffee shop or barber shop offers of buy 10, get 1 free is effectively a 10% return.

Interestingly, since you get 800 QF points for flying SYD-BNE one-way in Economy on a cash fare - if you flew this 10 times, you have enough points for a CR on the same route. This means you're getting around 7% return on spend with Qantas, assuming that all fares are $159, and taxes are ~$40. Most people would be okay with that kind of return on spend, in percentage terms. Of course, this is a specific example that changes when there isn't classic reward availability, and Classic+ would not be nearly as good value, but also consider that the cost of acquiring points is generally a lot less than actually flying.

I still maintain though that despite their pretty ordinary treatment of customers (to put it lightly), Qantas and every other frequent flyer program doesn't and shouldn't promise you'll get Business or First Class flights when you want, where you want. Social media influencers, not the airline, sell this, and people buy it, because it's such an easy sell. All airlines do is say you can get rewards for your spending with us, which is completely true. An Economy Class flight from Sydney to Brisbane is still a reward, and still saves you money. But it's not aspirational, so people don't care if it's offered or not.

Except that there are a few of us on here that remember a time when it was easy to get a CR in J and sometimes F using our QFF points. And for us it meant 2 awards.
Those times are never coming back as QFF is no longer a frequent flyer program and now is a point selling program.

 

[elanshin]

Except that there are a few of us on here that remember a time when it was easy to get a CR in J and sometimes F using our QFF points. And for us it meant 2 awards.
Those times are never coming back as QFF is no longer a frequent flyer program and now is a point selling program.

I dont anticipate ANY FF programs to remain this way in the long run.

Covid shown the light on just how ludicrous points loyalty programs are as a money making scheme. Everyone that looked at what Delta valued their loyalty program at now knows - (they valued it higher than their market cap .... )

It's just the way a capitalist world evolves over time. Flying planes aren't anywhere near as profitable as selling points. I mean what business doesnt want to sell their own reward points and have it traded as a pseudo currency when they can control almost every aspect of it.

Ultimately, we look at the changes, figure out the sweet spots and deals and use that. If none exist, then it's time to exit and go to the next venture.

 

[WilsonM]

Except that there are a few of us on here that remember a time when it was easy to get a CR in J and sometimes F using our QFF points. And for us it meant 2 awards.
Those times are never coming back as QFF is no longer a frequent flyer program and now is a point selling program.

I would also argue that those days aren't coming back also due to the massive increase in demand for those few seats. More people than ever before are active members of QFF, and the same holds true for loyalty programs around the world. Plus, my other argument of popularisation, more people know what they're doing etc. Of course, it really couldn't hurt if Qantas made even 1 F seat available on the entire calendar except for JNB...

 

[levelnine]

Those times are never coming back as QFF is no longer a frequent flyer program and now is a point selling program.

On this point, I think there's a big gap between people on this forum and people on other points savvy forums.

This forum leans older, less tech savvy & more focused on flying. This cohort of people are being left behind in the brave new world of loyalty programs.

On other places I frequent where the crowd leans younger, more tech savvy & more focused on credit card hacking, these people are having the times of the lives — it has never been better for them.

There are people in their early twenties figuring out tricks to extract 400K+ points from a single US credit card (through all forms of interesting trickery) and sharing photos of them flying ANA/JAL/Qatar/Singapore/BA/Qantas/etc First Class & staying in luxury resorts for next to nothing.

They post incredible photos such as this. If you aren't familiar with Hyatt, what this shows is a person 1 night away from top tier Hyatt status (Globalist) only 3 months into 2024 and without having spent a single dollar at Hyatt (0 base points). How? Purely from credit card spend.



What we're seeing with loyalty programs is a changing of the guard, from the person who earned their points from siting on a plane for days/months/years to someone who earns their points from home but has a range of tech skills.

 

[WilsonM]

On this point, I think there's a big gap between people on this forum and people on other points savvy forums.

This forum leans older, less tech savvy & more focused on flying. This cohort of people are being left behind in the brave new world of loyalty programs.

On other places I frequent where the crowd leans younger, more tech savvy & more focused on credit card hacking, these people are having the times of the lives — it has never been better for them.

There are people in their early twenties figuring out tricks to extract 400K+ points from a single US credit card (through all forms of interesting trickery) and sharing photos of them flying ANA/JAL/Qatar/Singapore/BA/Qantas/etc First Class & staying in luxury resorts for next to nothing.

They post incredible photos such as this. If you aren't familiar with Hyatt, what this shows is a person 1 night away from top tier Hyatt status (Globalist) only 3 months into 2024 and without having spent a single dollar at Hyatt (0 base points). How? Purely from credit card spend.

What we're seeing with loyalty programs is a changing of the guard, from the person who earned their points from siting on a plane for days/months/years to someone who earns their points from home but has a range of tech skills.

That's why AA went to a pure spend-for-loyalty program, and I think it's genius from a business point of view. It encourages irrationality in your spending practices, and the company doesn't care as long as you're spending the cash with their co-branded card. With the Hyatt example though, you could just buy the points (probably over a spread of family accounts with the 60k cap) and move them around to also create the same example of the nights with 0 base points earned.

Kinda makes zero sense to go for status without spending any time in the hotel/plane though. How are you actually getting any benefits out of status? There's a reason QF keeps status "locked" behind payment for airfares, with the sole exception of PC/PC+ CR seats.

 

[levelnine]

How are you actually getting any benefits out of status?

The idea is to get top tier status for the couple of vacations per year that you actually take. And for those vacations to be the height of luxury and essentially free.

And these aren't people buying points. These are people manufacturing spend.

Eg people earning 25 million points per year (a six figure income when converted to cash back):

 

[drron]

I dont anticipate ANY FF programs to remain this way in the long run.

Covid shown the light on just how ludicrous points loyalty programs are as a money making scheme. Everyone that looked at what Delta valued their loyalty program at now knows - (they valued it higher than their market cap .... )

It's just the way a capitalist world evolves over time. Flying planes aren't anywhere near as profitable as selling points. I mean what business doesnt want to sell their own reward points and have it traded as a pseudo currency when they can control almost every aspect of it.

Ultimately, we look at the changes, figure out the sweet spots and deals and use that. If none exist, then it's time to exit and go to the next venture.

Sorry but it is no longer a capitalist world anymore. It is a tech, influencer, social media world. In the long run it will too come to grief.Maybe sooner rather than later.

 

[clifford]

What we're seeing with loyalty programs is a changing of the guard, from the person who earned their points from siting on a plane for days/months/years to someone who earns their points from home but has a range of tech skills.

But do you think that this is sustainable? And is this what the airlines want? If so, we're in a lot of trouble...

 

[clifford]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before (apologies if so), but I do think that this is pretty much spot on.

Qantas Will Make Huge Changes To Flights Booked Using Points

Qantas Frequent Flyer will launch dynamic pricing for points bookings, a move that will improve award availability but increase the cost of flights

click.mlsend.com

Just Qantas being Qantas. What did you expect. It's still the leopards running the place.

In fact, it seems that Joyce has been much maligned. It seems that he was just the messenger..

 

[clifford]

Sorry but it is no longer a capitalist world anymore. It is a tech, influencer, social media world. In the long run it will too come to grief.Maybe sooner rather than later.

Ah yes, but who do you think finances these people and why?

 

[levelnine]

But do you think that this is sustainable? And is this what the airlines want? If so, we're in a lot of trouble...

Interesting question.

I think it is probably what Qantas would like because the actual frequent flyers have no where to go (if you travel domestically on a regular basis, you've really got one of two options in Australia) and even the card hackers are profitable because the airlines control the value of points and the inventory of award seats — the biggest losers are regular customers not in on this game (ie 99% of the flying public who foolishly pay cash for flights) and, to some extent, the banks that buy these miles from airlines and then end up giving them out to non-profitable customers, which is why banks try to crack down on this card hacking as much as possible but mostly fail because it can be hard to work out who's gaming the system and who isn't.

 

[clifford]

the biggest losers are regular customers not in on this game (ie 99% of the flying public who foolishly pay cash for flights) and, to some extent, the banks

Maybe they, or their consumer advocates or their Governments (or someone/thing) will prick the bubble. Wouldn't that just be fun to watch?

Looks like it could be happening in the US...

 

[levelnine]

Maybe they, or their consumer advocates or their Governments (or someone/thing) will prick the bubble. Wouldn't that just be fun to watch?

Looks like it could be happening in the US...

Possibly, though if the government did cap interchange fees, the airlines will be some of the biggest losers as the selling of miles is the most profitable arm of their businesses. There's a reason they are some of the biggest advocates for the status quo. Given the considerable consolidation we've already seen in the US airline industry due to profitability problems, I'm not sure a collapse/merger or two would be in the consumer's interests.

 

[clifford]

I'm not sure a collapse/merger or two would be in the consumer's interests.

Perhaps not, but it wouldn't bother me at all. Could be quite positive in getting us to the endgame.

 

[levelnine]

Perhaps not, but it wouldn't bother me at all. Could be quite positive in getting us to the endgame.

My guess is Europe represents our best guess at the endgame if the legacy carriers get these important ancillary revenue streams taken from them. They legacy carriers become LCCs (eg no real business class) as they are driven to compete with the true LCCs. Basically, air travel as a bus service.

 

[drron]

Ah yes, but who do you think finances these people and why?

People like Zuckerberg, Bezos and Soros. Not really your classic Capitalists.

 

[elanshin]

But do you think that this is sustainable? And is this what the airlines want? If so, we're in a lot of trouble...

Sustainable long term? No but neither is printing money endlessly for a government. That's effectively what airlines are doing with their loyalty systems.

In the short and medium term this is what they want and bigger expansion in loyalty the more money they get to print.

 

[clifford]

Sustainable long term? No but neither is printing money endlessly for a government. That's effectively what airlines are doing with their loyalty systems.

In the short and medium term this is what they want and bigger expansion in loyalty the more money they get to print.

Yes indeed, and that's why I'm slowly heading to the exit lane.

 

[RooFlyer]

Speaking of making an investment, the cost of Qantas Club is going up 17%

Qantas’ big price hike for lounge access and why the airline thinks it’s justified

Qantas will increase fees for its Qantas Club lounges by 17 per cent, adding about $100 to the annual cost of membership.

The first increase in seven years takes effect next month and will lift the cost of new memberships from $699 to $828, including the $129 joining fee, and the price of renewal from $540 to $629.

Qantas justified the increase by pointing out the airline was investing $100m into its lounge network, and rolling out new furniture across Qantas Clubs.

So the touted investment in lounges is going to be partly born by customers.