Qatar denied extra capacity into Australia

[oz_mark]

Although a difference is that Jetstar will be able to carry pax traveling just between CNS and MEL, whereas QR can't carry anyone between MEL and ADL unless they travelled in from DOH or vice versa.

QR are almost certainly making money, despite the 2 hrs of extra flying and 2 hrs of extra ground time they need to fly to ADL and back as it supports the extra MEL service, which in turns helps contribute passengers to that particular wave of flights at DOH. Whilst JQ will almost certainly make money by lowering the wage cost on the CNS/MEL flight vs domestic crew.

While that may be, in both cases the utilisation of capacity to the four main airports is fully utilised. However, both treaties have a provision to operate extra flights if they continue to a non-main airport. There's no abuse of law going on, it's a treaty provision.
I don't doubt Qatar is making money.

 

[evanb]

I don't know that it's exploitation of aviation law - they're using something specifically written into the agreement.

Agreed. And included at the behest of Australia. Several of the agreements entered into under the last LNP governments included the "enhanced regional package" (another example is Vietnam). I think they serve a good purpose, but if Australia doesn't put in the appropriate protections to ensure they are used in an appropriate manner then they shouldn't complain. In fact, they can go back and renegotiate them. I'm sure Qatar would concede to a protection in the "enhanced regional package" for something in return ...

 

[papeto]

Quite the opposite. PM met with AJ in Nov 2022 after QF lodged opposition to the QR proposal. Minister’s decision to decline was released July 2023.

Maybe Qatar should have rather applied for a bundle of rights ….

 

[evanb]

No, they are using the regional package provisions of the bilateral agreement.

(Jetstar has applied for Cairns-Melbourne-Bali under a similar deal with Indonesia)

And the same provision applied on the other side, say to Garuda or Batik flying CGK-DPS-SYD.

 

[moa999]

And the big difference being that both Australian and Indonesian airlines are wanting to fly the Aus - Indonesian routes, so there is mutual gain from increasing rights.

The same does not apply to Qatar.

 

[RSVKanga]

And the big difference being that both Australian and Indonesian airlines are wanting to fly the Aus - Indonesian routes, so there is mutual gain from increasing rights.

The same does not apply to Qatar.

Yep. That’s right. Qatar Airways and the Qatari Government were the only beneficiaries in the proposed bilateral that was rightfully rejected.

99% of Aussies going to Qatar transit there, practically no Australian has Qatar as a final destination, and virtually no Qataris come here too. Qatar Airways and the Qatari Government need to understand the concept of a two-way street. The same can’t be said about Turkey with a strong Turkish diaspora in Australia and tourism potential from both sides, and the possibility of QF flying to Turkey not now but sometime in the future.

 

[jase05]

Yep. That’s right. Qatar is the only beneficiary here. Even with Turkey and the new agreement inked by the Government last month, I can see Qantas flying to IST not now but in the future.

99% of Aussies going to Qatar transit there, practically no Australian has Qatar as a final destination, and virtually no Qataris come here too. The same can’t be said about Turkey with a strong Turkish diaspora in Australia and tourism potential from both sides.

If QF provided a half decent service and flew to where I want to go I’d no doubt fly with them more but there is no way I’m paying first rate prices for a third rate product. I welcome any airline that wants to come in and take on the market

 

[jrfsp]

Yep. That’s right. Qatar Airways and the Qatari Government were the only beneficiaries in the proposed bilateral that was rightfully rejected.

99% of Aussies going to Qatar transit there, practically no Australian has Qatar as a final destination, and virtually no Qataris come here too. Qatar Airways and the Qatari Government need to understand the concept of a two-way street. The same can’t be said about Turkey with a strong Turkish diaspora in Australia and tourism potential from both sides, and the possibility of QF flying to Turkey not now but sometime in the future.

Just like the UAE then?

 

[RSVKanga]

If QF flew to where I want to go

QF network will never reach the scale of ME connector airlines. If “where you want to go” are places such as Zagreb, Budapest, Lyon, Miami or Montreal, then I’m afraid to tell you that those destinations will never be QF destinations for obvious reasons, and the ME airlines will always have an advantage for those destinations.

 

[RSVKanga]

Just like the UAE then?

What do you mean? The UAE understands the two-way street concept

- The extensive Qantas-Emirates partnership significantly contributed to returning Qantas to profitability in 2015, helping Australia’s national carrier stay afloat. They should be rewarded for that.

- The two-way street situation between Australia and the UAE is good enough that both countries commenced official negotiations on a Free Trade Agreement in December 2023

- A lot of Australians do business in the UAE and the UAE is a tourist destination in its own right


Can’t say the same about Qatar.

 

[papeto]

What do you mean? The UAE understands the two-way street concept

- The extensive Qantas-Emirates partnership significantly contributed to returning Qantas to profitability in 2015, helping Australia’s national carrier stay afloat. They should be rewarded for that.

- The two-way street situation between Australia and the UAE is good enough that both countries commenced official negotiations on a Free Trade Agreement in December 2023

- A lot of Australians do business in the UAE and the UAE is a tourist destination in its own right


Can’t say the same about Qatar.

More like it benefits Qantas and the government is willing to turn a blind eye to the arostricies committee there - remember Jamal Khashoggi? The problem is once you start including moral arguments where do you stop? Should Turkey be flying here due to what they do to the Kurds or China to the Uyghur or buddhists? So moral grandstanding doesn’t cut it.

The perception that the government and Qantas can’t shake is that they are in cahoots. Not providing additional slots to Qatar provides additional benefits to Qantas/Emirates in the short term. Turkish Airlines can’t ramp up for a good 2 to 5 years, but Qatar can.

The only one that looses is the Australian consumer. Albenese was the previous transport minister so has a close established relationship with Qantas. He decided not to pursue an EU261 scheme.

 

[RSVKanga]

More like it benefits Qantas

That’s great. Well done Albanese.


If you were the Prime Minister of Australia, would you prioritise a 103-year old Australian national icon and enterprise that houses Australian jobs, which has also had significant setbacks due to draconian federal and state border closures during 2020-22

Or

Allow the expansion of a brutal foreign competitor that can afford to run as many flights they as they want at a deep loss and just offset that with their unlimited oil funds which would put many Qantas routes at risk and could result in many Australian job losses en masse?

 

[Warragul]

remember Jamal Khashoggi?

Relevance to UAE?

 

[RSVKanga]

That’s great. Well done Albanese.


If you were the Prime Minister of Australia, would you prioritise a 103-year old Australian national icon and enterprise that houses Australian jobs, which has also had significant setbacks due to draconian federal and state border closures during 2020-22

Or

Allow the expansion of a brutal foreign competitor that can afford to run as many flights they as they want at a deep loss and just offset that with their unlimited oil funds which would put many Qantas routes at risk and could result in many Australian job losses en masse?

Oh and before anyone sprouts the false “qAtAr bRoUgHT mOrE AuStRaLiAns hOmE tHaN QaNtAs dID”, at least be informed that Australia has the strictest and most dystopian Covid-19 restrictions in the world, whether it be state borders turning into iron walls over one case or the unnecessarily long federal border closure - Qantas simply couldn’t operate international flights.


Qatar didn’t have those restrictions. Qatar doesn’t have state borders. No cough they were able to operate regular flights!

 

[oz_mark]

And the big difference being that both Australian and Indonesian airlines are wanting to fly the Aus - Indonesian routes, so there is mutual gain from increasing rights.

The same does not apply to Qatar.

While that is the case, the underlying claim that Qatar is exploiting Australian aviation law is utter tosh.

 

[evanb]

More like it benefits Qantas and the government is willing to turn a blind eye to the arostricies committee there - remember Jamal Khashoggi? The problem is once you start including moral arguments where do you stop? Should Turkey be flying here due to what they do to the Kurds or China to the Uyghur or buddhists? So moral grandstanding doesn’t cut it.

The perception that the government and Qantas can’t shake is that they are in cahoots. Not providing additional slots to Qatar provides additional benefits to Qantas/Emirates in the short term. Turkish Airlines can’t ramp up for a good 2 to 5 years, but Qatar can.

The only one that looses is the Australian consumer. Albenese was the previous transport minister so has a close established relationship with Qantas. He decided not to pursue an EU261 scheme.

Jamal Khashoggi was a Saudi national killed by Saudi Arabia. What the hell does it have to do with this?

The point is that bilateral air services agreements are part of the global international trade and investment architecture. They don't exist in isolation of this and the broader diplomatic arrangements between countries. Countries can rarely achieve consensus on isolated issues in trade and investment negotiations, and concessions in one area are traded for concessions in other areas. Countries that treat each other with respect will generally have opportunities to find consensus across a broader range of issues. For example, Australia & NZ had an incredibly restrictive bilateral for generations, but it took a much larger free trade agreement to change the bilateral, not even to an open skies, but a single market.

In this context, countries will trade away significant concessions for bigger goals. What has Qatar offered Australia in return? Australia expanded Qatar's access in early 2022, and then within a year they came back asking for more without offering much (if anything) in return. For not getting what they wanted they tried to bully the government. It doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

Yet, while Qatar has a restrictive arrangement, the UAE got a good one. Ironically, the impetus behind it wasn't Qantas-Emirates, but Virgin-Etihad! Virgin and Etihad entered into a joint venture in 2011, more than 2 years before the Qantas-Emirates joint venture!

Yet, China also got open skies. India got open skies. Singapore got near open skies. US got open skies. These all form part of much larger, broader and more important trade and investment relationships.

At the same time, I agree, blocking additional access to Qatar will cost Australian consumers in the short run, although far less than many have suggested. In the last few months, Singapore Airlines has quietly added more capacity than Qatar would have brought. There is no counterfactual, we simply do not know if they would have added this capacity if Qatar had brought it instead. We don't know, but people argue it as fact.

And yes, there are many countries with poor track records on human rights. But if you simply give them everything they want, you have no leverage. Alternatively, imagine in any other area of trade we simple gave countries market access with nothing in return? This would be absurd.

 

[evanb]

<Redacted>

This sounds a little unhinged. The previous LNP government sat on the previous Qatar request for years, initially granting it temporarily and extending it permanently under duress. Qatar cornered them. Their sudden interest isn't benevolent but rather because they found something that the media were keen to go along with.

Australia didn't grant the Turkish request. Turkey requested a negotiation and the two countries have good relations, with no outstanding dispute. There is also a large Turkish community in Australia. At the same time, they are being phased in. It is not 35 weekly frequencies (also this has nothing to do with slots). It is 21, with a further 14 phased in over time.

We literally have open skies with China, but it formed part of a free trade agreement.

I'm not sure Flight Centre are the authority on this. They are not somehow the independent arbiters of this. The claims they made about Qatar's potential capacity was straight up imaginary!

 

[Pushka]

Still doesn’t mean we should let Qatar bully Australia, our government and our people. You making this comment only shows that you as well agree that Qatar is more of an adversary and potential bully to Australia’s interests than a friend and partner.

bullying? How is Qatar bullying anyone? And at least they did fly to South Australia all during the pandemic, bringing SA much needed supplies and also maintaining to a degree SA export market. Qantas? Pffft. (And I dont care how you use capitals and lower case to make some kind of funky point) If anyone is doing the bullying it was Qantas. Or was that bribing? And I don't care which Govt we are talking about as Qantas didn't differentiate its actions.

 

[RSVKanga]

And at least they did fly to South Australia all during the pandemic, bringing SA much needed supplies and also maintaining to a degree SA export market. Qantas? Pffft.

Are you aware that Australia had the strictest border closures in the world, whether it be state or federal? Qantas were barred from operating flights internationally AND domestically due to those restrictions and if they did they would have been in massive financial danger as the airline was a private company on a brink of collapse trying to minimise costs due to border closures. QR is a state owned corporation that could afford to fly into Australia despite the border hassles due to their significant economic advantage in the form of unlimited oil funds

 

[RooFlyer]

The Australian Government was right to block a brutal competitor with endless oil funds and state ownership that could have posed a serious threat to Qantas and its post-Covid job security. Qatar can suck it. Surprised that they haven’t been further restricted from our airspace after the 2020 incident and their continued exploitation of Australian aviation law (ghost flights).

In all your posts here, you completely ignore the benefits to us - the (mostly) Australian international flight consumer. Quality, price, convenience (ie Adelaide direct on QR, nothing on QF). What you are really saying is 'Australian flyers can suck it'.

You are right - if ever there was a time to impose moral forces on airline agreements it was in 2020. But the governments sensibly decided morals weren't a factor. As others have said, one you go there, you are banning Chinese carriers ... USA (with its death penalty for children..). etc.

Qatar didn’t have those restrictions. Qatar doesn’t have state borders. No cough they were able to operate regular flights!

But we are talking international flights, not flight within Australia, where state borders impacted airline operations. Qantas kept flying in this 'dystopian' intra-country environment.

Qantas, with its then current or with additional overseas crew, could have flow the exact same routes into Australia as QR did. Or at least tried to. But no. A finger to those Australian desperately wanting to fly home of "the national carrier". QR didn't have to keep flying here, but they did.

If you were stuck overseas somewhere at that time, which airline would you be thanking? Oh, of course Qantas DID mange to somehow navigate the international flying conditions of covid time - when the government paid it. So it wasn't so tough after all.