Trainee pilots in the coughpits with Jetstar's domestic flights

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Slats7

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Just $57,600 on a part-time contract?? No news makes them sound very underpaid!! Why is no news trying to make this sound so dangerous?? Who cares what New Zealand requirement is. We are only worried about the requirement here in Australia and JQ is not breaking the law.


JETSTAR passenger services are being flown by trainee pilots with as little as 200 hours experience, according to the pilots' association.
The cadets are employed on part-time contracts which guarantee just $57,600 a year - with no pay rise for six years - and require them to pay the airline $10,500 a year for on-the-job training costs.

Read more: Trainee pilots in the coughpits with Jetstar's domestic flights | News.com.au
 
Just $57,600 on a part-time contract?? No news makes them sound very underpaid!! Why is no news trying to make this sound so dangerous?? Who cares what New Zealand requirement is. We are only worried about the requirement here in Australia and JQ is not breaking the law.


JETSTAR passenger services are being flown by trainee pilots with as little as 200 hours experience, according to the pilots' association.
The cadets are employed on part-time contracts which guarantee just $57,600 a year - with no pay rise for six years - and require them to pay the airline $10,500 a year for on-the-job training costs.

Read more: Trainee pilots in the coughpits with Jetstar's domestic flights | News.com.au
Unfortunately this type of underpayment and bonding is very common in the aviation industry.




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Claims Jetstar cadet pilots have only 200hrs flying experience are not correct in this story. They complete a comprehensive program to earn qualifications.

Based on how many hours our pilots fly on average, Cadet Pilots will fly in excess of 850 hours per year. This means that their wage will be around $90,000 and is on par with a First Officer.

Thanks,
Simon
 
Claims Jetstar cadet pilots have only 200hrs flying experience are not correct in this story. They complete a comprehensive program to earn qualifications.

Based on how many hours our pilots fly on average, Cadet Pilots will fly in excess of 850 hours per year. This means that their wage will be around $90,000 and is on par with a First Officer.

Thanks,
Simon

Even $57,000 is not bad for a cadet.

Just no news trying to start a scare campaign.
 
Even $57,000 is not bad for a cadet.

Just no news trying to start a scare campaign.

And then being bound within the same 'group', a different contract to others (less money and conditions), paying money to Jetstar to train you.. Just check out pprune and you'll see the uproar about this cost-cutting scheme.
 
This is just part of the cadetship I thought.

My best mate looked into it closely but couldn't justify the cost. He now still stuck in GA flying 12hr days by himself in SA.

Perhaps he should have given it a shot :D
 
I think that Jetstar needs to be congratulated on its cadetships.

IMO getting the right people, with the right mindset (& attitude) into the company and training them up is a fantastic breath of fresh air, especially when compared to airlines where pilots have a militaristic sense of entitlement. Good on you Jetstar!
 
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It's not really that bad a salary - a First Officer with American Eagle starts on less than $20k a year. In that case, you'd really hope they were doing it for the love of the job, otherwise there'd be a bit of a problem! :shock:
 
Scary, scary stuff - all the more reason to avoid JQ like the plague.

I prefer my pilots to be paid more than the Cabin Manager!
 
I'm sorry, but are you guys who think this is a good idea serious?

The jets take two pilots to fly. Not 1 point something.

What one of these low experience people will do is simply load up the captain, as he has to watch every move they make. The results of this in normal operation will be untidy...throw in some real problems and they will be deadly in very short order.

I've instructed people at the 200 hour end of the experience curve...and I've had major problems in aircraft a number of times over the years. Thankfully, I've never had a low hour pilot with me at the same time that the aircraft has decided to play up, but the two will not be a good match.
 
You just have to look at Pprune to find plenty of "information" on this topic.
And then being bound within the same 'group', a different contract to others (less money and conditions), paying money to Jetstar to train you.. Just check out pprune and you'll see the uproar about this cost-cutting scheme.
The day anyone starts quoting PPRuNe as an authority is the day they lose credibility with me.

IMHO nonews is more credible than most posts on PPRuNe :!:
 
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I'm sorry, but are you guys who think this is a good idea serious?

The jets take two pilots to fly. Not 1 point something.

What one of these low experience people will do is simply load up the captain, as he has to watch every move they make. The results of this in normal operation will be untidy...throw in some real problems and they will be deadly in very short order.

I've instructed people at the 200 hour end of the experience curve...and I've had major problems in aircraft a number of times over the years. Thankfully, I've never had a low hour pilot with me at the same time that the aircraft has decided to play up, but the two will not be a good match.
As jb747 knows, I have instructed people at 0 hours through to quite experienced and what he says is absolutely correct. A low time person is actually a hinderence if/when it all goes pear shaped.

Having said all that we all had to start someehere. :shock:
 
Having said all that we all had to start someehere. :shock:
Absolutely true. But is the right hand seat of an A320 operating RPT the right place to be starting? Now obviously every pilot who gets to 5000+ hours must have started with 0 hours on each type on which they fly. But would be nice to know that even if the pilots have low hours on the specific type being flown, they have plenty of experience with other types and flying conditions before taking on commercial RPT jet ops.
 
Absolutely true. But is the right hand seat of an A320 operating RPT the right place to be starting? Now obviously every pilot who gets to 5000+ hours must have started with 0 hours on each type on which they fly. But would be nice to know that even if the pilots have low hours on the specific type being flown, they have plenty of experience with other types and flying conditions before taking on commercial RPT jet ops.
The right hand seat of ANY airliner is not the place for an inexperienced. That first couple of thousand hours should come in GA, or the air force, but most definitely not anything carrying large numbers of passengers.

In many ways, there is little difference between something like an A380/747 and the smaller aircraft from the same maker. If a 380 can do it to you, so can a 320.

Yes, these kids are young, smart and keen. But, quite honestly they mostly fly the same way youngsters drive. Leap first, and look second. They load up very quickly, and when they do start to task shed, they are just as likely to shed the important stuff.

This entire exercise is driven by accountants, not by pilots. They know as little about flying, as I know about finance.

Yes, everyone starts with zero hours, but historically people have gained those hours on types on which there is less to lose when mistakes happen. And yes, there was a time when I was sitting in the left seat of a 380, with zero hours on type, but in that case I had a very senior captain sitting next to me, and also an FO and a SO looking over both of our shoulders. Their entire reason for being there was to make sure that the two captains did not become so involved in the training aspects that they forgot the flying ones. And, of course, whilst I had zero 380 hours, I had about 18,000 on other heavy types.

There is a myth around (believed by some here I think) which basically says that the modern 'electric' jets are so safe that the insurance policy provided by the pilots is less necessary. Well, firstly the electric jets are extremely prone to faults and errors. "What's it doing now" isn't a quote that means the pilots don't know what the aircraft is doing, but is just as likely to be applied when the aircraft takes it into its head to go off at a tangent. The electric jets, in particular the Airbus, also have a nasty habit of becoming much harder to operate after any sort of malfunction. They may be relatively easy to operate when things are going well, but a couple of random failures can do nice things like take ALL of the automatics away, whilst simultaneously dropping the aircraft into different (i.e. harder) flight control laws. This sort of stuff happens, but it normally never becomes an incident, and therefore you don't hear about it, because it is simply managed by the pilots.

The classic accident involving people who should not have been there is, of course, Colgan. Not only was the FO out of her depth, but the captain was pretty much incompetent. But, another accident that involved task saturation, but relatively much more experience people, was that of Turkish at Amsterdam. That should have been caught, but was basically missed because everyone's eyes were off the ball...but that is exactly the sort of risk you would be exposing yourself to with low total time pilots...and remember, we aren't talking about them being restricted to flying with training captains, nor will there be a 'safety' FO. These, basically unqualified, people would be the actual FOs. Quite honestly, at that point I would be driving my car, not setting foot on an aircraft.

Bear in mind that I am not saying that experienced people don't make mistakes. Sure they do. But generally they recognise them earlier, recover from them more gracefully, and then simply move on. Very simple to say, but it takes a lot of experience to learn just how to do it, and it cannot be learnt in a simulator or classroom.
 
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$57000 is pathetic for someone which such responsibility for the lives of others. I've worked with people who had a year 10 education that earned that for much less demanding work. And it annoyed me greatly that I was also earning about the same with 3 degrees and 7 years of book learning (@ university)
 
jb747 said:
This entire exercise is driven by accountants, not by pilots. They know as little about flying, as I know about finance.
While it may be supported by “accountants”, I would imagine (given similar approaches across multitudes of other industries) that it is being driven by modern HR and recruitment practices, with better psychological & behavioural comprehension, of who & what makes ideal job candidates.


Historically, as modern businesses introduce these new recruitment practices, many staff who have taken a longer and more “practical route” to their current position, don’t acknowledge that people have very different aptitudes, and dismiss any alternate routes to their job positions. This attitude is particularly prevalent in jobs where “doing your time” before “making it” has previously been the only path forward. In these industries, new recruits, who have the correct fundamental characteristics to be “fast tracked”, often represent too much of a challenge, for many of the old guard to accept.

jb747 said:
That first couple of thousand hours should come in GA, or the air force…
I fundamentally disagree with this anachronism; a modern team oriented work place should be diverse, with a good mixture of experience, as well as psychologically appropriate, sharp “cadets”.

So I again applaud the concept of commercial pilot cadetships, because I believe that the best decision making comes from fostering diverse workplaces, and that a path through “bastradisation training”, is not going to appeal to many ideal candidates. Specifically, spending time “fitting in” to the command structure within the air-force, or relegated to the (environment, people & lifestyle) in red dust back-of-Bourke, has IMO psychologically skewed many current pilots with a particular mentality. Not that this path isn’t a valid one for some personalities, but equally, simply possessing this experience does not make them ideal for the position. (Indeed their inability to function as part of a team may be undermined by the experience. There are instances, where co-pilots did not challenge the tired, old, experienced, “commanding” pilots of flights, which had they, could have lead to alternative courses of action, and avoiding disasters.)

Some people take time to learn, and need large amounts of repetition and on the job training before they can progress, others are completely different. Many bright kids, who would make ideal candidates for commercial pilot positions, would not be interested in “doing their time” in the air force or general aviation - so commercial aviation should be actively finding new and alternative paths for them into the industry. Where, I believe, their diverse new abilities/attitudes will add significantly to the workplace team.
 
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I don't want to be in a plane with a pilot who doesn't have the self discipline to learn to fly in a range of conditions and get the hours up. Or who can't handle the airforce. :eek: :confused: It's the airforce and they are an officer! It's not that hard once you finish the training.

Oh and google CRM, if you think that there is a lack of questioning the senior pilot these days.
 
dk4,
As someone who has seen both sides of this argument (both military and civilian) I really have to agree with you BUT only in theory.

I have known many pilots who were let to go, or put themselves out of their depth. Fortunately most, though not all, of them are still alive.

The thing that has saved many has been a robust support and training system and the opportunity to fly many hours in the other seat before they were put in the command seat.

Where I have just spent many years it was felt necessary, when assessing experience levels toward command upgrades to weight military training at a ratio of 1 hour of military flying as being equivalent to 2 hours of civilian flying and nobody got a command without having many thousands of hours experience.

To suggest that in the modern world there are better and more efficient ways to progress people is not shown to be true when you put them in a simulator or other training regime.

Further to all of this I have to say that your implication that the military relies upon barstardisation to train people is so far off the mark that it is laughable as well as insulting :!:


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